April 19, 2011
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Christian demons vs. Muslim demons?
Intro:
Last time I posted some chunks of Christian apologist, Steve Hays' views on demons, skeptics, and UFology from "This Joyful Eastertide," his ebook length response to the skeptical anthology, "The Empty Tomb: Jesus Beyond the Grave." Today we're going to get into how he attempts to apply that in debate.
This conversation started in "The Infidel Delusion" (TID) which was an ebook length response to another skeptical anthology, "The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails," and from there it continued in blog posts from Debunking Christianity (DC) and Triablogue "discussing" the issues further.
Atheist, John Loftus, at DC says in response to TID:
Muslims claim the same exact thing. They say the reason Christians believe is because demons are deceiving them. Where does that get anyone? I’ll tell you where—nowhere as in NO WHERE.It would have been nice if he would have said something like that in his chapter as an example of how to consistently apply the "outsider test for faith," but that didn't quite make it in.
In his response to Loftus, "Scoring the Outsider Test," Hays objects:
[Loftus] acts as if Islam and Christianity are symmetrical. Yet that’s obviously not the case. For instance, Muhammad treated the Bible as the standard of comparison. He invited doubters to ask Christians and Jews to vouch for his prophetic credentials. But that’s hardly reversible. It’s not as if Bible writers ever invited Mohammedans to judge the Bible by the Koran.
Just because some aspects are asymmetrical doesn't mean all of them are. Duh. Loftus appeals to a point of more substance, since if demons inspired Christianity or Islam, then they can make up any further "tests" or asymmetries that they like which will be superfluous.
In his third post to me, "Ne'er shaw yir teeth unless ye can bite!," Hays objects again:No, that’s not how Loftus framed the argument. Loftus said:
Muslims claim the same exact thing. They say the reason Christians believe is because demons are deceiving them.
Muslims are in no position to say that, for that would be self-refuting. The Koran claims to be a confirmation of Biblical revelation. If, however, Christians are demonically inspired rather than divinely inspired, then that undercuts the ostensible foundation for the Koran.
Wow. Alright, well the illustrious all-mundane-things-knowing wikipedia says:
Muslims believe that those texts were neglected, corrupted (tahrif) or altered in time by the Jews and Christians and have been replaced by God's final and perfect revelation, which is the Qur'an.
Hence, it's not so self-refuting to claim that demons helped Christians corrupt the original revelation and inspires them to reject the updated version.
Outro:
Maybe Hays could try a little harder next time? Christians have lots of epistemic problems like these. See my argument map, "Could Jesus be lying about hell?" and my coverage of "2 Thessalonians 2:11 and Strong Delusion" for some more examples.
Ben
