April 23, 2010

  • (book review) "The Christian Delusion" - Ch. 1: The Cultures of Christianities

    Intro: 

    This series is an atheist's review of an important anthology critical of Christian beliefs called, "The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails" (TCD), that is likely to be popularly discussed across the web.  I'll be reviewing the book in light of just about every other response to TCD on the web (pros and cons) and responding to new Christian objections as I find them.  I think this will be the best that I personally can contribute to advancing our collective conversation about these important roadblocks to solidarity in our culture.


    Chapter 1, "The Cultures of Christianities," by David Eller:

    [note:  Eller and Loftus' responses have been rolled into the post so you don't have to fish through all the comments]

    Unfortunately I have to agree with one reviewer, Greg Peterson, on Amazon about chapter 1:

    It doesn't help that perhaps the book's weakest chapter is its first chapter. David Eller's sociological discussion didn't exactly start off the book with sparks a-flying. Just trading places with the second chapter, a very engaging and well-written piece by Valerie Tarico, would have helped matters in terms of pulling the reader in and getting her excited by the material that was to come.

    That's actually good news, since I was a little disgruntled.  I knew there were great chapters ahead, but I didn't know how many weak chapters there would be.  Apparently it's all up and up from here (see chapter 2, for instance)! 

    Contents of My Review (the "CliffNote" version):

    Eller's Overstates Argument:  Is religion all culture?

    I guide the readers over the journey to figure out what exactly Eller's argument even is.  Then we realize his argument is outright fallacious. 

    Eller Asserts Conclusion:  Are all religious arguments bogus?

    Turns out, Eller declares premature victory over all Christian arguments and evidence with sentence two of chapter one of TCD.  Christians are not impressed.

    Eller Misses the Mark:  Should atheists be excusing themselves for failing to convert Christians?

    Eller's chapter seems to be more about explaining to atheists why they fail to convince Christians with logic and evidence rather than about persuading Christians that they are delusional.

    I respond to Eller's response to my review:  Should "openly atheistic" books pass their own outsider test for faith?

    Loftus emailed the original version of my review to Eller who clearly didn't get the point.

    I respond to Loftus' response to my review:  Are atheists obligated to agree with Eller's logic?

    Loftus fails to tell the difference between disagreeing with fallacious arguments and disagreeing with conclusions. 

    I agree with Christian reviewer, Looney:  Can there be a true religion after all?

    Despite the hype for TCD, there is in fact a very obvious and typical "somewhere to run" for Christians.

    The Point of Eller's Chapter:  Should we be aware of the influence of culture in generating religious persuasion?

    The tragedy of this chapter is that Eller didn't even need to include his fallacious reasoning. 

    Christian reviewer, Paul Manata makes a potential point:  How much does culture affect the scientific community?

    Probably not enough to matter, but it would be an interesting issue to explore.

    Eller Overstates Point:  Are the religious aspects of our culture a conspiracy?

    Atheists accuse Christians of being deluded for seeing demons behind every bush, and perhaps the same should apply to anthropologists who see Jesus behind every sneeze.

    Random:

    I chastise the atheist movement:  Should secular humanists be developing a well-rounded culture to satisfy human needs?

    I use the arguments from Eller's chapter on the influence of enculturalization to show that atheists should be working on their own cultural paradigm.  Eller might actually agree.

    Eller abuses a common atheist metaphor:  Would religious people be feeble without their "crutch"?

    Eller says we shouldn't use the "religion is a crutch" metaphor, and I point out it doesn't have to be an insult.  A wide range of "strong" and "weak" people are bound to be equally encultured by religion, so many people are simply unnecessarily letting religion rob them of things they could just as easily be doing themselves. 

    Eller is "one of those" philosophers:  If years aren't real, does time even exist?

    Obviously the idea that the delineation of time is arbitrary makes perfect sense, but after a painful chapter, one does not wish to see things stated so badly in "philosopherese."  


    Outro:  3 out of 5 stars

    Important content for a book like this, but poorly presented.  Bad start for the book. 


    So what's the problem with the main argument of this chapter?  From one positive review, from Jim Walker, there hardly even seems to be an argument:

    Professor of Anthropology, David Eller, contributed two chapters and starts out by showing that there is no such thing as "Christian Culture" but rather many different Christian cultures, each one "permeated with Christian assumptions and premises," and each one differing from the next.

    So what?  I think most Christians wouldn't have that big a problem with that statement (other than perhaps with some semantics).  For instance, Christian reviewer, Jason Engwer says:

    Contributors like David Eller and Valerie Tarico are correct in noting the cultural and shallow nature of many people's alleged commitment to Christianity.

    And Christian reviewer, Paul Manata agrees:

    The best part of The Christian Delusion was that it pointed out that Christians have compromised and confused their unique religion with passing fads of culture. (Of course, Christians have made these criticisms too, and they have been making them longer and in a stronger form.)

    You almost have to go to a negative Christian review, written by Looney, to figure out what the heck you are supposed to think:

    The unspoken conclusion is that at most, only one of these can be true Christianities, and it is just simpler to assume none.

    That might be close to accurate.  In his overview of the book, one of the contributors, Richard Carrier explains what this chapter is actually supposed to demonstrate:

    ...Dr. David Eller (an expert in the anthropology of religion) exposes how Christian missionaries use the science of anthropology to market the gospel in other cultures, and how they acknowledge how culturally relative religion is, even their own religion, yet irrationally fail to see how this actually makes their religion no more credible than the ones they seek to displace.

    Um...right.  I don't think the subjective things they have to do to sell Christianity constitute what they think is the "credible" part.  Carrier's fallacy is therefore equivocation

    I'm not exactly the only person to notice this.  Christian apologist, J. P. Holding points out the obvious:

    Something smells bad here. Eller may be confusing "relativity" with "relevance". I of all people know how important it is to contextualize the Gospel message, but that's not making the message "relative," it is trying to order the absolutes. Beyond that, it is a non sequitur to say that this makes any religion more or less credible.

    It's great being on the same page with Holding...  *sigh*

    Anyway, here's more specifically how Eller pulled it off (or rather failed to pull it off):

    ...the writers urge missionaries to "recontextualize" Christianity in such a way as to fit it into the local cultures without rejecting every aspect of those local cultures but without losing the core of the religion.  [emphasis mine]

    Yup, so there's still no argument yet.  How do we contrive one?  Eller continues:

    Other cultures are cultures, you see, but Christian culture is "reality"--which betrays their actual intention and in so doing betrays the message of anthropology. 

    Obviously the Christian missionaries think the core mentioned above is the reality and Eller just seems to be imposing his anthropologist sensibilities uncharitably on what he says missionaries have been telling him.  The equation "culture = religion" is Eller's construct.  Not theirs. 

    Anyway, there is no argument in Eller's chapter that a mainstream Christianity is actually false.  And I'm not the only one to notice:

    But alas, the argument in David Eller's essay "The Cultures of Christianity" seems to have gone missing.

    A reader would have to take for granted sentence two of the chapter:

    After all, every argument in support of religion has been shown to be inconclusive or demonstrably false...

    Let's just end the entire book there (on sentence two of chapter 1) if that's enough.  Christian reviewer, jayman777 points out:

    Jayman777 pointed to the religious philosophers who should at least give Eller cause to explain more than his one sentence assertion contrary to everything they are currently working on.   That's fair enough.  [However, I'll see his link and raise him a link from over on Common Sense Atheism:  "What Do Most Philosophers Believe?"]  In addition, Paul Manata points out:

    ...it's not as though Eller has proven that every convert to Christianity who claims to have been influenced by a vision, a supernatural dream, a Divine orchestration of circumstances, or some other supernatural process is mistaken. Eller set the goal for his chapter too high, and that's his fault.

    As Christian reviewer, Randal Rauser complained:

    It gets a bit tiring hearing people say how powerful their case is without laying out their case. It's like some dude at the Dairy Queen who tells everyone how his Mustang II could smoke all the other cars in the lot, but who then insists on slurping his Blizzard in perpetuity rather than firing up the engine and laying some rubber. To borrow a phrase from Wendy's mid-80s advertising, where's the beef?

    It is no crime to believe in your conclusions and tell us.  However, when we review the chapter and realize your argument is actually hinged explicitly on this assertion just being true...that's a whole new ballgame of WTF. 

    Jayman777, points out:

    Given the fact that these Christians recognize the diversity, plasticity, and relativity of their own religion and yet still fervently proselytize, it is strange that Eller expects this recognition to result in such Christians leaving Christianity behind.  Eller notes that some Christian missionaries believe that other cultures are false but Christian culture is reality (p. 29).  This should have made him aware that Christians are interested in the truth.

    Bu-but Eller disagrees with those arguments!  Therefore Christians are not interested in truth.  And therefore Christianity is all culture.  And therefore missiologists are inconsistent with themselves!  Gosh...Christian thinking is so twisted, isn't it?  [/sarcasm]  I'll bet Loftus doesn't like it when Christians claim that he is only an atheist for subjective emotional reasons, because they disagree with his arguments.  Perhaps we shouldn't return the favor?  It's a thought. 

    Loftus is worried by my critical review that Christians will get the wrong impression.  Apparently he is oblivious that Christians will get the wrong impression from actually reading the chapter.  I don't think it helps at all if every atheist online is equally oblivious.  For instance, Christians like element771 have noticed Eller's persuasive failure (in reference to the above Eller quote) already:

    I really cannot comprehend this type of statement. This, IMHO, shows that there seems to be a commitment to atheism that is beyond argument, critical thinking, etc. I am a Christian that understands that all of the arguments for atheism are not complete crap and some are definitely worth thinking about.

    And I just can't blame him that much for coming to that conclusion.  Likely, he won't be the only one.  Most will probably just be silently offended and give the book back to their concerned atheist friend who lent it to them.


    Eller tells us:

    This will also explain, finally, why the efforts to debunk and displace Christianity through evidence and logic--the atheist's stock in trade--have been and will continue to be largely futile. 

    Is this book called why skeptics fail?  Christian reviewer, Steve Hays agrees:

    ...wasn't The Christian Delusion supposed to disprove the Christian faith?

    Because it seems like Eller (given the main shortcoming of the chapter that I've pointed out above) is more concerned with apologizing for why skepticism fails to refute Christianity than making sure he really sticks it to the faith community. 

    Eller defends himself in response to this post of mine:

    I mean, if he thinks it is a valid point of criticism that the book is openly atheistic, then he is missing the whole point of the book: it IS openly atheistic.

    Apparently Eller thinks it's cool to not be openly persuasive

    In response Loftus insists though that:

    Christianity is emphatically not a unified sets of beliefs or actions or organizations, as Eller convincingly shows.  [emphasis mine]

    Perhaps he should have read Valerie Tarico's chapter where she says (page 48):

    Certainty is a feeling, not proof of knowing. 

    Apparently Loftus genuinely thinks that after one takes a college level course in critical thinking (as though I haven't already) equivocation and assuming your conclusion will be logical.  Loftus also thinks that one would get a different impression if they'd just go read Eller's books.  Will that make equivocation and assuming your conclusion logical?  Incidentally I do know someone that has read Eller's book, Atheism Advanced, and apparently Eller assumes atheism there, too, in order to take us on the cultural tour.  So no, equivocation and assuming your conclusion will still not be logical or persuasive after I go read Eller's books.

    Valerie Tarico knows how to handle her case (pages 62-63):

    Understanding the psychology of religion doesn't tell us whether any specific set of beliefs is true.  I might believe in a pantheon of supernatural beings for all the wrong reasons [...] and they still might exist...

    Jason Long pretty much knows how to handle his case, too (page 66):

    Explaining the various thought processes that place people in a certain religion is not intend to serve as proof that the belief system is wrong...

    Why doesn't Eller know how to handle his?  It seems he finally gets around to a similar honest construction of his perspective when he defends himself against Rauser:

    If the "periphery" of Christianity--all the little flourishes and details--is cultural, and it indisputably is, then what is to convince us that the "core" of Christianity is not just cultural too? In other words, I hold that Christianity (and every other religion) is cultural through and through--that it holds no "truth" but merely cultural thinking. Like the anecdote about the religion that believes the world stands on a turtle, and that turtle on another turtle, with "turtles all the way down," so I assert, and see no argument to disprove, that Christianity is "cultural all the way down."  [emphasis mine]

    There you have it.  An assertion!  *facepalm*  But maybe there's hope after all:

    I am talking here about the familiar arguments like the ontological argument or the cosmological argument or the teological (argument from design) and so on. See the first chapter of my "Natural Atheism" book on "The 12 Steps to Atheism" on all of these arguments.

    Arguments!  That's great.  Maybe you should put those in all your persuasive writings.   [note:  Rauser has some of his own fun with Eller's "response"]


    Nevertheless, Loftus seems completely unwilling to accept this obvious criticism.  Perhaps Jason Long's chapter explains why this might be (page 73):

    Impression management theory suggests that people increasingly stick by their decisions because consistency leads to social reward and inconsistency leads to social punishment. 


    *shrug*  Loftus has to sell books I guess.  Hope that works out for him.  Loftus was at least kind enough to send Eller my review and Eller apparently completely agrees with Loftus' assessment.  Perhaps Jason Long shouldn't have armed me with this (page 73):

    ...people are often incapable of rational thinking due to the effects of cognitive dissonance, they will often fall back to utilizing the arguments from experts who agree with them.

    *chuckles* 

    Loftus, in response to this review, even goes to crazy lengths to cover for Eller's polemical failure: 

    [Your review is]  ...inconsistent with what you must believe as an atheist [...] Dr. Eller is explaining what you as an atheist must accept about religion. Religion is a human invention within different geographical locations on the globe, and as such, each one represents and reflects a particular culture. They merge into one another when they make contact with each other. Christianity is therefore a culture which changes and morphs into different things as it makes contact with different cultures. All religions share something though, and that is they are made by human beings. So they all have a core based in human need and values, and that's the core of religion. Bart Ehrman in his book "Lost Christianities" argues there were more different early Christianities than we see today and that the Christianities of today would think those other Christianities were bizarre. If there is a core to Christianity then why did the Office of the Inquisition kill other professing Christians, and why did eight million of them die in the Christian wars of the late 16th to early 17th centuries? There is no equivocation here at all.

    Loftus needs to point out where I denied Eller's conclusion or evidence (or Bart Ehrman's for that matter) if he doesn't want to be called delusional.  One can embrace all the anthropology Eller presents, and agree that religion is only a product of culture, but disagree with the specific logic applied to get there.  Anyone who took that college level critical thinking course would know that.

    I was pretty sure Loftus was a die-hard first-impressions-are-forever kind of person, but it seems the evidence can eventually get to him

    You seem to be a bright young person, I’ll finally admit that.

    Thanks.  Let me know when you you're done denying that the sky is blue on the other more relevant issues here.   

    After Randal Rauser points out virtually all the same things I did here in this review, Loftus responds to him:

    Anthropologists describe what they see. Theirs is a purely descriptive versus prescriptive discipline of learning. I'm surprised you didn't know this. When they seek to understand the religions of cultures this is what we find. They all look the same! They all evolve the same! We need anthropologists to tell us what they see. This is what David Eller does in his books and in this chapter. For you to understand him you should become informed. Sorry to say this but when you can dismiss the power of what he tells us like you do, it can only mean you are not informed, or, well, deluded. May I suggest you get and read his excellent book, Introducing Anthropology of Religion.

    To which Rauser aptly responds:

    Many sociologists have been relativists about science, but I dare say their arguments for at least some forms of relativism were surprisingly weak. You could be a brilliant person and still draw erroneous conclusions from your knowledge.  And if you're suggesting a force majeure that because most cultural anthropologists have concluded x then I ought to conclude x, I'll still politely ask for their reasoning to x. I haven't seen it yet.

    Then, as you can see, Loftus spends time doing damage control and trying to salvage the content of Eller's chapter.  Yeah, maybe someone should rewrite it (like Pascal Boyer, maybe?).


    Anyway, as I expected, it's not very hard for a Christian like Looney to sidestep the entire chapter's thesis:

    Christianity is a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It was multicultural from the start as the Grecian and Jewish Christians worked things out, followed immediately afterward by Greek and Latin Christians, yet the commonality of the relationship is with Jesus Christ. As we look at the large number of Christian "sects", it is quite clear that the cultural differences are a key factor in the multiplication of organizations, yet at the same time the underlying church still remains unified on the basis of Jesus.

    Paul Manata said it like this:

    We are aware of heretical cults that claim to be in the same line of descent. We are aware that some Christians try to baptize video games. We are aware of the snake dancers and poison drinkers. They exist. But their existence does nothing to determine the truth value of the propositions Christians confess. That Christians have made bad music and movies has no bearing on whether Jesus was a real, historical individual who is fully God and fully man, who came to earth, fulfilled the law, died, and was resurrected from the dead for the justification of His people. It has no bearing on whether the universe shows signs of intelligent design. It has no bearing on whether the universe was caused to exist by the intention of a personal first cause. It has no bearing on whether reasoning presupposes theism. It has no bearing on whether God is required to ground moral truths. It has no bearing on whether the conjunction of naturalism and evolution is self-defeating. That some Christians have grown up in Christian households and in a Christian culture has no bearing on the truth of the claims Christians make.

    Randal Rauser puts it this way:

    This simply left me puzzled, rather like somebody who tells a story with no discernable punchline and then begins to laugh uproariously while others look on confused. Never did Eller provide any argument in the chapter that because Christianity is a culturally embedded system of belief and practice which has changed through time it is therefore not true in its central claims (e.g. that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself).

    I predict Looney, Manata, and Rauser's responses will be typical (and I just keep adding to this list).  I'd be happy to be wrong, but I'm fairly confident that I'm not. 

    The most charitable thing I can say about Eller's chapter is that it makes for an incredibly mediocre warm up for readers who simply have no clue that there's a such thing as another religion.  But, are we really aiming that low?  Do we have to only aim that low?  Surely we can hit multiple levels of audience as we go along.  One can address the beginners as well as making sure the moderate and advanced folks are not going, "WTF?"  If you are a parent, just think of the huge difference that there is between kids' movies you have to sit through that only aim at your kids, and kids' movies that are sophisticated enough to have something for everyone. 

    So anyway, that's the main criticism of the opening chapter.  It's a rough start.  Eller winds down with the point he actually does have to offer:

    Religions may think they are universal and eternal, but they are not.  Religions may think they are special, but they are not. 

    and:

    With the information presented in this chapter, and in this book, it is impossible for Christians to remain unaware of their own religion or of the differences between religions.  The hope, and the obligation, is that once people recognize the diversity, plasticity, and the relativity of religion, they will see little merit in it: that which is no longer taken for granted is often not taken at all. 

    That's fair.  There are plenty of Christians who need a little guided tour of the crazy circus that is the religious world.  I would agree with that.  It can burst some bubbles.  But they don't need a bad argument underpinning it all.  There are tons of atheist/theist arguments that haven't been addressed and many Christians who will feel shorted if chapters like this jump the gun.  It would be very easy to say something like, "Hey, btw, religion is really plastic.  I know you might have lots of arguments and evidence that you think justifies your particular religion, but we'll get to that in later chapters.  For now, we need to appreciate that the vast majority of religion transmits itself arbitrarily through subjective cultural means.  At the very least, it's a great reason to reassess your tradition." 

    Jayman777, agrees:

    At best [Eller] can hope that this chapter will lead Christians to ask:  is my religion true?  But then it will become a matter of intellectual arguments.

    It seems we really do need Loftus' first book, "Why I Became an Atheist" after all to justify the logic of this first chapter.  If Christians are going to ad hoc the Holy Spirit into the single strain of denomination they can trace all the way back to Jesus, then we don't need to be competing with them with our own fallacies. 

    One point that Paul Manata did bring up that actually perhaps contributes to the discussion (rather than just eating up all the red meat Eller, Loftus, and Carrier threw his way) is this:

    Eller fails to mention what atheistic sociologists have said about science and scientists:

    Scientists are people who work in an unusual kind of local community. This community is characterized by high prestige, lengthy training and initiation, notoriously bad fashion choices, and expensive toys. But according to sociologists, it is still a community in which beliefs are established and defended via local norms that are human creations, maintained by social interaction (Godfrey-Smith, Theory and Reality: An Introduction to the Philosophy of Science, The University of Chicago, 126).

    For Eller to pretend his cultural claims about Christianity affect the positive epistemic status a Christian may have for her beliefs, while not bothering to let his readers know about the double-edged nature of this criticism, is simply an exercise in confirmation bias.

    I'm assuming those atheistic sociologists would still maintain that the scientific community is doing a much better job of policing their biases (at least as far as their specific scientific conclusions go).  I would never accuse the majority of the scientific community of being keen philosophers even on the philosophy of science.  But there's still the question of just how much impact does their humanity have on things?  Is there any science on this that tells us science in what ways this plays out and how much it actually matters?  Manata doesn't tell us. 


    A sub-theme to the main shortcoming of Eller's case is the unnecessary conspiratorial nature of a lot of the chapter:

    If the presentation above has not awakened them to the multiple mundane ways in which religion pervades their lives...

    Whether or not they know it--and it is more insidious if they do not know it--non-Christians living in Christian-dominated societies live a life permeated with Christian assumptions and premises.

    Most atheists use most of these phrases without any thought for their source--and how the use serves the source.

    Religion may even show up when you sneeze ("God bless you").

    One of the most overlooked ways that religion replicates itself in the everyday is in personal names.

    *looks around for waiter*  Check please.  Randal Rauser points out the same thing:

    Note to Mr. Eller: Let's try to restrain ourselves from impugning motives and smearing characters, at least until we've put some gas in our tank first. (An aside: what would justify a cunning charge? How about this: an intercepted letter from a leading Christian sociologist to a Christian evangelist saying:

    "Heh heh heh! Our plan is working perfectly. The subjects are imbibing their culturally embedded Christianity and are being infected by our meticulously planned mind-virus. Soon everyone will be buying WWJD bracelets and we shall become rich!"

    [...]  Eller frets that Christian idioms infect our culture. He is apparently distressed that atheists will say "cast the first stone" or "lost sheep" "without any thought for their source-and how the use serves the source." (34) What, is he joking? I don't get my knickers in a knot when a Christian says "Gee, you're lucky!" or "We go together like yin and yang." Imagine being wound so tight that you have to pick at everyone's idioms. Mr. Eller must be a real downer at cocktail parties.

    This is only good if we want to reinforce the stereotype that atheists think religion literally poisons everything.  And Rauser confirms this suspicion:

    All of this suggests to me an individual who has a deep-seated antagonism toward Christianity, and religion more generally, which has blurred his vision and obscured his argument. With such frenetic charges and warnings, the essay reads more like a piece of conspiracy literature than reasoned atheistic apologetics.

    And Eller's overstatement allows Paul Manata to say things like this:

    It might be upsetting for those atheists who want to show that they can be moral and can provide a basis for morality without religion to learn that they're simply, and quite ignorantly, regurgitating the Christian ethos they swim in. [...]  According to Eller, these "cultural waters include everything. It grounds and informs a particular view of reality" (29). So much for those atheists, like Richard Carrier, who, in the same volume, writes a chapter that Christianity is not responsible for modern science. If he were listening to Eller he would not have made this mistake. Eller gives us Cornelius Van Til on steroids. This is an admission to "borrowed capital" in excelsis!

    And like this:

    [Eller has] been hornswoggled by some evangelicals into viewing Christianity in hyper-worldview terms, intimating that there are specifically Christian ways to turn wrenches and pound nails...

    *sigh*  It's not a good sign when someone like Manata is giving the sensible overview:

    I think it's significant that while Eller rightly notes such a high degree of Christian influence on Western society and the United States in particular (33), John Loftus highlights the religious pluralism of modern America (90), and Hector Avalos highlights the West's secularism (219). Such notions can be compatible with each other, but comments like those of Loftus and Avalos should be taken with Eller's qualification in mind. There has been some pluralizing and secularizing of Western cultures in modern times, but there's still been, and is, a large Christian influence.

    Even a favorable reviewer didn't have to overstate the claims to the conspiratorial extreme:

    [Eller's] point that culture is so wrapped up in religion, and vice-versa, is well taken. With a global culture so diverse, it’s no wonder there are something like 38,000 different varieties of Christianity integrated into that culture.

    I’d never thought of it this way before, but it’s so clear how religion intrudes into and takes over all aspects of life, from our habits of speech (“God Bless You” when you sneeze), to critical life events such as birth, death and marriage (even creating artificial events like christenings), to our bodily habits and dress (“circumcision” and “burkha”), institutions, art, even our concepts of time and dates (this is the year 2010 A.D. “Anno Domini”, after the birth of Christ). Religion so permeates our culture, that it’s well nigh impossible to divorce our attitudes about it to look at it objectively.

    I still wouldn't call it "well nigh impossible" but perhaps, "subjectively difficult."

    Random:

    Eller says:

    Those who want to "win" the contest and to influence society must heed--namely, culture.   

    And:

    This, we believe, is why recasting mundane, routine practices has been so vital to all manner of social reformers...

    I'm going to do a little plug here for Ethical Societies.  They are basically atheist churches.  You take out god and replace it with humanist values with community support.  I happen to go to the main one in St. Louis.  They get a lot of ideological flack for being "too churchie" or rip off reactions to Christianity, but if we are to be expected to think that enculturing people is the way to win, why in the heck are atheists so often all against it?  Here we have an authoritative source sticking it to religion supposedly telling us how religion insidiously co-opts culture and yet we take that same science and dismiss it for the sake of remaining lone wolfs.  I know too many atheists who do that.  So, I'd like to take whatever momentum is supposed to be in this chapter and redirect it against the egotism of the atheist community that says it doesn't need to be a community and stand together with common values and provide a hollistic way of living to help win the culture war.  Just sayin.

    I was pleased to discover that in one of Eller's books, Atheism Advanced, Eller does actually push a vision for the atheism of the future.  Perhaps we could be on the same page there.

    Eller abuses a metaphor, imo:

    Some atheists and other critics of religion like to use the analogy of a crutch for religion [...]  But you cannot pull a crutch from underneath a cripple and expect him or her to walk.

    This will be a minor point.  It's an analogy and analogies have their limitations.  I've always interpreted it as though religious people are using a crutch they don't actually need.  They can walk upright, but they are just encultured to think they can't.  "But what would I do without God telling me not to murder people?"  Ten seconds later, after losing touch with their god feelings, "Oh, there are obvious mental and social consequences I'd really like to avoid."  So I don't think we have to discard the metaphor since I arrive at the same conclusion Eller does using it.

    Here's some silliness:

    ...it is the year 2010 according to the Christian calendar, but it is not "really" 2010 or any other year.

    Dude...we're not really here at all.  Eller!  Geez.  That's it!  I'm becoming a Christian! 

    Loftus, in the comment section below, hastily chooses to attack my last statement as though it is the most important thing I've said here.  He doesn't see the irony in light of what Jason Long says in another chapter (page 68):

    Petty and Cacioppo have found that providing a person with a few strong arguments provokes more attitude change than providing these arguments along with a number of moderate ones. 

    So Loftus can't address the fact that Eller assumes his conclusion (and then Loftus says crazy stuff about me not being an atheist when he finally gets around to it, as I pointed out above), and so attacks literally the weakest zebra in the herd of criticism.  *sigh*


    Outro:

    I give this chapter 3 stars.  It uses a logical fallacy at the heart its argument, overstates some of its claims in distasteful ways, and fails to take into consideration the most likely reactions of its intended audience.  However, if you strip out those aspects, leave the modest intentions that surface at the end of the chapter, and look at it through the lens of the rest of book, it still deserves 3 stars for the array of information it presents the reader. 

    Next up, Valerie Tarico's "Christian Belief Through the Lens of Cognitive Science." 

    Ben

Comments (41)

  • "Most atheists use most of these phrases without any thought for their source--and how the use serves the source."

    But that's the best part of being atheist: we can use christian phraseology to our our own godless ends.  Thank god I'm an atheist!  ;)

  • @Andrea_TheNerd - Yeah, I don't think even most Christians give much thought to the theo-phraseologies everyone dishes out on a regular basis.  For the most part they are either underinformed or they just don't care.  Just like atheists.  It's just junk culture that no one cares about.  Not a conspiracy to take over our thinking.

  • I've never heard of Ethical Societies before. Maybe you can do a blog explaining more about them and your experiences there. What similarities to a church are there? Do they have music and then someone speaks? Do they take up contributions to help pay for things etc, ?

  • Can you refrain from posting more than one chapter a week?  Being busy and all would allow one to take the time deserved in reading your comments.  Not that everyone else is busy but I for one simply can't keep up if you go at a faster pace.

    On the side when you do the chapter on Paul Copan you may want to get the EPS journal, below is the link

    http://www.philchristi.org/

    I believe four Christians, with various viewpoints, responded to Paul Copan's article. 

  • @musterion99 - Sure, I can do that.  Good idea.  For now, if you are interested in the less personalized version, here's their info page.

    @Fletch_F_Fletch - I was going to attempt to do one chapter every weekday morning.  That could get to be a bit much though depending on the chapters.  How about 2 a week?  Like a Monday/Wednesday thing? 

    I do have some college student friends who may be able to help me get a hold of those journals.  Good call.

    Ben

  • @WAR_ON_ERROR - It's your call, I just think the discussions between people will be most valuable given the time to analyze what you say.  Of course this is your blog and its merely my opinion.

    Here is the Paul Copan article for starters:

    http://www.philchristi.org/library/articles.asp?pid=45&ap=1

  • Your last comment about the year 2010 has got
    to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard from you. According to Joseph
    Lewis in "An Atheist Manifesto" he argues that in 1954 it should really be the
    year 178. You just don't understand, do you?

    Copyrighted in 1954
    and
    in the 178th Year
    of American Independence

    http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/lewis/lewis03.htm

    First you must understand the argument in order to
    critique it.

  • @Johnwloftus - That said, where else does he go wrong?  No one is just going to assume your assertion is accurate.

  • Granting Eller’s argument, the Bible makes it clear that one should market the gospel in other cultures and reach people where they are at and synthesis the gospel to their culture, one sees this throughout the New Testament; isn’t this a noble characteristic of a good teacher and/or counselor?  I’m glad Eller is making the argument that Christianity is NOT ethnocentric. After all Christ sets the foundation as to how Christians live and I suspect the thrust of his criticism was on the culture of religion, likewise it would be on many of the cultural elements practiced by Christians throughout the Church’s birth.  It seems Eller is doing the Christian a favor and reminding Christians who and to what their allegiance is based on. That said; there is a striking element that you see throughout history with how Christians respond to the injustices of the world.  As Rene Girard makes the claim that it is the spreading of Christianity spreads so does the concern for victims. Whether this is an exaggeration or not, I recently taught a course on church history and it is quite interesting to see the Christian love toward the victim throughout the history of the Church. It appears nothing Dr. Eller claims is an antithesis to the teachings of Christ, thus making me so far longing to see why one would claim that Christianity is a delusion.  Rather, this seems like a chapter all Christians should read as Christianity certainly should not have idols based on radical nationalism. On the side I gave you props on Voxday's blog as a place to go where rational inquiry isn't compromised by egotistical rants, as egotistical rants are extremely prevalent in the blogsphere.

  • @Johnwloftus - I understand what Eller is trying to say about the arbitrary metrics we use to measure time and had the chapter not suffered from all the other substantive things I pointed out, I wouldn't have even brought up his kooky formulation of it.  It is absolutely the least important item I brought up in this post. 

    As you can clearly see, Fletch_F_Fletch and even Looney are easily able to co-opt all the information presented in the chapter and reframe it in terms of their worldview, because Eller let them.  That's what's important.  Not my hyperbolic overreaction to an anthropologist trying to speak philosopher.  Eller didn't address the obvious things many Christians are going to be thinking and so he leaves himself wide open for all the criticism he's going to get for it.  And I think it will be well deserved, since his specialty is obviously not atheist polemics either. 

    Ben

  • @Fletch_F_Fletch - Unless you expected perfect brand consistency, I don't think there is much that Eller presents that would make you feel "delusional."  Granted there are plenty of people that unconsciously do have a stronger expectation.  Experiencing the vast landscape of possibilities has been known to make many people feel what little grasp on truth they really have through their religion.  Some people will feel the need to dive into apologetics and get serious about their worldview and others will intuitively sense that won't be worth it.  So it's almost just an experiential argument that's not going to work on anyone even somewhat advanced in their Christian journey. 

    Thanks for the shout out, though it seems I've already picked up a Vox-loving troll on another post.  *shrug*  I'll deal with it.

    Ben

  • Ben, thanks for admitting that this is a one-sided review. I've
    already commented on what you had to say about Dan Barker's Foreword
    earlier. But I must emphasize what you are doing in this
    review. No, I'll not take the time to argue with you on each point,
    which I could. It would be time consuming for me. What you're doing
    is playing the proverbial Devil's Advocate, arguing what Christians
    might object to without constructing what Eller might say in response.

    Listen up, there is no way in hell that anyone can anticipate every
    objection in a small chapter, any chapter. If you really want to
    criticize Eller's chapter then review his books. That's where he does
    his best to argue his case. And even then, since he's not writing a ten
    volume defense of his arguments, there are still leftover objections
    Christians can have of what he has to say in them. This is both obvious
    and non-controversial to any thinker. Books like TCD are part of a
    larger conversation/debate. It's ongoing, with arguments then
    counter-arguments and so on.

    So just as I said earlier, anyone, and I mean anyone, can look at a
    chapter and argue that things could be better said, or that other things
    could have been said instead, anyone. It doesn't take much by way of an
    education or expertise to do so. The hard part is to set forth your case
    knowing that numb-skulls like you will always nitpick away at them
    acting as if they know more than the author does as you do (which is
    quite arrogant I think).

    The reason I pointed out your ignorance of Eller's argument about
    the year 2010 is that this is just one of several things you're doing
    in this review. There are others, you see. Try this instead: Put a
    charitable interpretation on each of Eller's arguments along with the
    other chapters that follow. Then construct how Eller would answer those objections. You know he could, don't you? Or would that be too difficult
    for you? Take something Eller says, offer a Christian argument against
    it, and then try to defend it. Why not? That would be interesting to me
    for then I could see that you are truly trying to engage the arguments. But this might require that you become better educated by reading his
    works, and that is probably something you won't do.

  • @Johnwloftus - John,

    I intentionally set out to explore the weaknesses of the book from the standpoint of how what I would think an ordinary Christian would react to reading through it.  You don't seem to have a place for that in your mind and I don't understand that.  Isn't your target audience important?  I don't disagree with anything Eller said about his particular field in anthropology.  But somehow you get a message other than the one I'm conveying.  I don't understand that either.

    I'm criticizing his presentation, philosophy, and atheist polemics and I've quoted various Christians here to show that I'm not just making crap up.  They are reacting in somewhat justified ways and I've shown how it's not entirely their fault.  I don't see how you can argue with that as though I'm picking out obscure perspectives to berate your authors with unfairly.  

    The most important criticism of this chapter is pretty easy to address.  Equivocation.  Culture doesn't equal Christianity (or at least, most intellectual Christians won't argue with the subjective cultural aspects of their religion) and I've shown how Christians will easily side step the contents of the chapter.  How can you imply that's not important?  They are already doing it, so there's no way to argue they won't.  There's a difference between when their reaction is just their fault and when their reaction is partially the author's fault.  And in this case, I think I've shown how it's partially Eller's.  

    The problem is that I already see the equivocation from Eller's perspective.  If the "convincing" arguments for religion are either always shown to be false or remain unverified, then of course everything is culturally relative!  My point is that doesn't mean anything to a Christian audience who doesn't agree with those premises.  If the audience was atheist, I would have no place to object.  But the audience isn't atheist.  So, it's not a failure to empathize with where Eller is coming from on my part.  It's a failure of Eller and yourself to empathize with where your Christian audience is coming from.  

    If the chapter is primarily based on exposure, then let it be just exposure.  Don't bother making a fallacious argument.  Don't paint a conspiracy where there isn't one.  Are people unaware of how much religion saturates the mundane things of our culture?  Maybe not.  But it doesn't have to be a conspiracy.  Present the material people may not be aware of.  Leave it open ended, and point to other chapters where there are more focused arguments.  In that event, when Christians react, I'll be blaming them for having the wrong expectations.  So there's no reason to argue the contrary on Eller's behalf.  These elements should just be dropped. 

    You don't have to like my opinion, but it is still my honest opinion.  

    Ben

  • Ben, you don't know how an ordinary Christian will react to this or any other chapter unless you first presume which Christianity is the true or dominant one around the English speaking world. Christianity is emphatically not a unified sets of beliefs or actions or organizations, as Eller convincingly shows. There are the Bible thumpers, moderates, liberals, and so on, and so forth. Do not presume to tell us what they will all think or how they will all respond. This whole enterprise of yours is doomed from the start because you have not understood Eller's chapter. You can't do what you are doing. There are Christian missiologists who might understand and feel the force of Eller's arguments much more so than the Bible thumpers. Are you also going to tell us what they might think upon reading it? How can you? You don't know much of anything about the topic as far as I'm concerned.

    Let's wait for Christians to chime in first. I can almost guarantee you there will be debates between Christians themselves on what to do with Eller's arguments. Why weigh in on one side or the other before they make their respective arguments? The only legitimate thing you can do is react to these chapters from YOUR perspective, for THAT is the only perspective you have. That's why I suggested what I did in my previous comment.

    You see, I never play Devil's advocate. The Devil can do that for himself. You still do not understand what it means when I say anyone can find fault with a small chapter because there will be things in it that might have been said better, or that there were concerns that were not addressed. Anyone. About any chapter.

    And while I don't mind constructive criticism, I'm emphatically not finding anything helpful with your review because you're not saying anything that the authors have not already considered and yet chosen to write their chapters the way they did for good reasons anyway. After all, they are the experts. You are not, right?

  • @Johnwloftus - "Let's wait for Christians to chime in first."  Why wait?  Looney, element 771, Fletch_F_Fletch, and musterion99 and probably just about every Christian I can think of is going to have about the same reaction that I would expect them to have.  Just about every outspoken Christian on the internet is going to think Christianity is more than culture and that they have actual arguments supporting their position.  You can't treat that as some obscure sect. 

    You think the missiologists are going to respond positively to what is clearly equivocation?  If they are telling each other to keep the core of the religion as Eller has claimed, then obviously they are going to disagree with Eller's conclusion.  Eller simply ignores that and imposes his interpretation on what they say to make it seem like they should agree with him. 

    I will continue to gather more and more Christian quotes as I go along since I'm literally combing every response I can find on the internet.  I don't see how logical fallacies are going to help propel the chapter the most.  However, if and when I do find Christian responses who respond in a meaningfully different way (or in a way that you or Eller might expect), I'll be sure to give those a shout out as well.  It doesn't really matter though, since it seems pretty clear that Eller has ignored a large audience unnecessarily. 

    I'd be happy to be wrong, but I don't think that I am.

    Ben

  • Look Ben, so far I've only been criticizing what you're attempting to do here, that is, I have only criticized your goals. I have not, without the glaring exception of your incompetence about the year 2010, been trying to show anything you wrote in particular is wrong. The reason is because I do not have the patience with what I consider such ignorance coming from an atheist. I refuse to engage you on what you wrote about my Introduction, since that was sheer ignorance. But there is nothing I can respect about your review of TCD. It is unfair (that's what you should say rather than a "one-sided"), disrespectful, massively ignorant, and inconsistent with what you must believe as an atheist (see below). So far, anyway.

    I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion, either, my friend.

    Dr. Eller is explaining what you as an atheist must accept about religion. Religion is a human invention within different geographical locations on the globe, and as such, each one represents and reflects a particular culture. They merge into one another when they make contact with each other. Christianity is therefore a culture which changes and morphs into different things as it makes contact with different cultures. All religions share something though, and that is they are made by human beings. So they all have a core based in human need and values, and that's the core of religion. Bart Ehrman in his book "Lost Christianities" argues there were more different early Christianities than we see today and that the Christianities of today would think those other Christianities were bizarre. If there is a core to Christianity then why did the Office of the Inquisition kill other professing Christians, and why did eight million of them die in the Christian wars of the late 16th to early 17th centuries? There is no equivocation here at all.

    As I said, there is only one perspective to evaluate this book from, and that is your present one. Now you can agree with some Christian criticisms, yes. But let me turn the tide on you and ask you to explain why you are an atheist if you think there is an equivocation? I don't think you can. And if you can't you have accepted what could debunk your own atheism.

    I'm gathering up links to fair and substantive reviews of TCD, and since I do not think your review is fair or respectful or substantive I will not be linking to it.

    Cheers

  • Let me be clear here so I don't have to comment again. The concept of religion is larger than Christianity so there is no equivocation. Look at what he said again, please. But if there is an equivocation, and if Christianity is not religious culture (i.e., a human invention), then the only alternative is that it is a divine institution. What else could it be? Thus you are admitting a divinity and at that point you are no longer an atheist.

  • Ben,

    I like this project.  Good for you.

    JT

  • Ben I sent this review of yours to David Eller and he wrote back with a link describing you. You are unskilled and unaware. I agree. You are. Check the link out. It doesn't make a whit of difference that you recently wrote positively about Valerie Tarico's chapter. Since you have already demonstrated yourself to be "unskilled and unaware" the best interpretation of your review of Tarico's chapter is simply that you could understand it. What you understand you can recommend, and that's pretty much all there is to it. So from here on out I'll be able, for the most part, to see what you can understand. That's not saying too much about your critical thinking skills though. Sorry.

  • @Johnwloftus - John,

    Thanks for sending Eller my post.  I'd be interested to hear whatever specific things he has to say.

    "But let me turn the tide on you and ask you to explain why you are an atheist if you think there is an equivocation?"

    It appears to me that you are misinterpreting my criticism of this chapter and should re-evaluate it with fresh eyes.  As I've stated previously, I agree with Eller's content and conclusion, but not *how* he gets there.  He uses equivocation to get there (as I have clearly shown in the post, which has yet to be addressed) and that fallacy isn't necessary. Missiologists don't believe the subjective cultural expressions of their core religion are the part that makes their religion credible.  Eller smashes those two parts together in order to get his conclusion and claims he's taking what they say to its logical conclusion. 

    So I don't think my atheism is in jeopardy just because one other atheist uses a fallacious argument for the cause.  Your atheism isn't in jeopardy just because I'm "unskilled and unaware" is it?  It's not in jeopardy just because one of your authors wrote kind of a lame chapter, is it?  

    "Since you have already demonstrated yourself to be "unskilled and unaware" the best interpretation of your review of Tarico's chapter is..."

    That is certainly one possible hypothesis to explain what is going on here.  There are other competing alternatives you don't seem interested in exploring.  You have a lot on the line, so I understand.  

    take care,

    Ben

  • Along with the link he provided he wrote this to me:

    "I suppose if you enjoy or benefit from arguing with people like that, then it is
    worth your effort.  I generally consider unworthy of my effort.  They need an
    entire course on clear and critical thinking before they can even hear or grasp
    our argument.  I mean, if he thinks it is a valid point of criticism that the
    book is openly atheistic, then he is missing the whole point of the book: it IS
    openly atheistic."  

    "As for my own chapter, it is interesting if tiresome to see exactly my point being
    verified: there is no dispute that the "core" of Christianity (or any other
    religion) gets repackaged in relation to the local culture.  He grants as much,
    and asserts that all Christians know it (which I doubt).  But the big question
    is whether the "core" itself is a cultural product, and of course it is.  They
    are happy (sometimes) to allow the "core" to be adjusted to local conditions,
    but they still think that the core itself is unchanging, universal, and true, 
    It is not.  Christianity, like every religion, is cultural "to the core"!"

  • Ben, I like you, but you need to take a critical thinking course.

  • @Johnwloftus - Cool.  I think I understand now what Eller was attempting to argue (or why he chose the specific path he took).  Perhaps, in Eller's experience the vast majority of missiologists don't even bother attempting to have arguments or justifications for their own core religion that are distinguishable from the cultural expressions they dismiss.  That wasn't clear from Eller's chapter, though perhaps I missed something. 

    That seems a bit implausible though.  It seems to me that Christians who are geared specifically to forge their way into other cultures are at least somewhat prepared with what they believe are good arguments for the religion.  Even if they don't specialize in that themselves, I would expect (and I might be wrong) that they'd probably direct agnostic/skeptics they confront to a book by Lee Strobel, William Lane Craig, Ravi Zacharias, or whomever.  What Christian isn't going to at the very least attempt something like a rudimentary teleological argument?  It just seemed like Eller assumed whatever non-cultural arguments they were peddling were dismissed at the beginning of his chapter (because of his own convictions that aren't actually defended in the chapter) and then he attacked their line of reasoning uncharitably without allowing them the dignity of simply being mistaken about their "grade A" material.  I'm sure you would agree that we don't have to oversimplify things to win the culture war.

    It may be a sample bias on my part that just about every Christian I tend to talk to online (or get into actual debates with in person) DOES actually have what they think is evidence and argument that go beyond the subjective cultural expressions they've adopted in a given culture.  No one is using Christian rap music to argue for the validity of their religion.  Hence, just about any negative reviewer on Amazon or on their blog isn't going to be the audience Eller is shooting for (even if he is completely right about most missiologists, which I doubt) and so just about everything you find online or in print could easily take Eller to task for similar reasons that I've presented here.  The chapter, at best, is going to hit the middle line between culturally innate Christians who can have their bubble popped and culturally innate Christians who realize they need to dig into the evidence and philosophy of their belief system.  It's just a call to re-evaluate and many Christians might admit that is perfectly fair.  I think most Christian apologists would prefer they do so and have a more informed faith.  In addition there will be the ones reading along who have already dug their heels into pseudo-evidence land and also need to be considered.  I don't think that's crazy of me to point out.  Jason Long even argues in chapter three (page 68) that when you combine moderate material with good material, people tend to latch onto the weaker material.  Doesn't that sound like a call to hound the weaker material and purge it from our front runner books?  I would think you might welcome the service. 

    This is where I think we starkly disagree.  The conclusion that religion is cultural to the bone is a conclusion that has to be justified in a contentious context with intellectually oriented Christians if we actually expect them to find themselves mistaken (i.e. delusional).  Eller wants to excuse himself by saying the book is ONLY overtly atheistic, but I think you both know he's wrong.  The book is also meant to be overtly a persuasive case to people who are not atheists.  Right?  If it's just for in-group atheist think, so be it (surely there's a place for that), but it's no secret that's not how the book has been advertised.  Eller doesn't do us any favors by ignoring that.  I've already shown how Christians have responded to that tactic and why we can't fully fault them for it.  If the TCD doesn't pass its own OTF by design, I think you would agree that that would be truly baffling. 

    I'm sorry that my review is stepping on your toes (and possibly will in the future, depending on the merits of the chapter I'm evaluating), but I'm not going to be dishonest about TCD's contents for the sake of being loyal to the movement.  In reality (if we are the metaphorical "church of reality"), being dishonest is what is disloyal.  Everyone on my blog knows I'm a big Richard Carrier fan, and yet I still freely criticize his arguments when I don't think they stand up (for instance, in this post).  I don't think he'd have that any other way (and if he did, I would no longer be a fan).  I also don't think it's productive for you to continually insist I don't understand anything about anthropology and that I need a lesson in critical thinking any more than it is productive for me to insist that you are being irrationally defensive and blowing everything out of proportion (even if I'm wrong about my criticisms of the chapter).  That's not going anywhere.  However, it does seem like it would be very easy for me to sell my narrative to the people who already know me on my blog, to many people who already know you on your blog, and especially to your enemies.  I have no interest in pursuing the politics of that.

    If you (and Eller) are still going to disagree with me, that's fine.  But I think we can at least have a functional disconsensus rather than a dysfunctional disconsensus.  You don't have to advertise my review.  I would not expect you to if you don't feel comfortable with it.  I'm fine to do what I think is a public service here in my own corner of the internet and there will be many who will approve.  Feel free to ignore it.  But I think there are benefits to reassessing your perspective on this series. 

    Ben

  • For me to show your lack of critical thinking skills would not be worth my time, Ben, especially since I've tried without any success here. So instead I merely suggest you take a college level class on it. It's not meant to be a slam. I mean it. With the dismal thinking skills displayed so far in your review, not just about Eller's chapter, I'm sorry to have to suggest it, but I do. Come on, what do you have to lose? Do it. I mean it as a friend. It'll help you.

  • @WAR_ON_ERROR - Yes, Ben, please take a college level class on logic.  Please, do it for yourself.  Or if not for you, for the young impressionable minds who survey this blog.  Or if not for them, for your hesitant yet ever burgeoning attraction to Loftus' studly cowboy hat.

    ...oh wait, you've already taken such a class?  ...and even were a logic tutor?
    Never mind.

    @Johnwloftus

  • @Johnwloftus - I'm just going to
    let this go.  It's a shame we couldn't work together.  Take care, John.  Feel free to comment any time you have the time to get into something meaningful.  Looks like we have to do this all together separately.

  • @Fletch_F_Fletch -

    You mean these?

    http://www.philchristi.org/philchristi/tocs/pc_toc_11-1.pdf

    Did God Command Genocide? A Challenge to the Biblical Inerrantist  -- Wesley Morriston

    “Let Nothing that Breathes Remain Alive”: On the Problem of Divinely Commanded Genocide  -- Randal Rauser

    Atheism and the Argument from Harm -- Joseph A. Buijs

    We Don’t Hate Sin So We Don’t Understand What Happened to the Canaanites: An Addendum to “Divine Genocide”
    Arguments -- Clay Jones

    I think I will go with the once a week thing.  Chapter 3 will show up next Monday.  :)

    Ben

  • @WAR_ON_ERROR - 

    I Can't remember the four, but they do sound right.  Also worth mentioning is Wesley's view, he dropped inerrancy, saying those commands came from Satan. 

  • @Fletch_F_Fletch - Holy Moley.  That's a bit of a change.  It also sounds a lot like how some Muslims claim there are Satanic verses ("black verses" or something) in the Koran. 

    I was only able to acquire the first two of the bunch.  I do have one more college friend to ask.

    Ben

  • @WAR_ON_ERROR - I have the quote and such a viewpoint represented on my site, it is under the tag "Christianity" and the post is called "The Case for Radical Discontinuity"

  • Ben, the reason I looked at the percentage of philosophy of religion faculty members who believe in God, as opposed to the percentage of philosophers in general, is because philosophy of religion faculty members presumably have the most knowledge about arguments for and against God's existence.

    Fletch_F_Fletch, I like your comment about this chapter being co-opted by Christians for beneficial purposes.  What is essential to Christianity?  What is cultural?  Where can we agree to disagree and still work together?  How has "Christian culture" improved the world?

  • @Jayman777 - "philosophy of religion faculty members presumably have the most knowledge about arguments for and against God's existence."

    That's an interesting point.  I'm not psychic and the polls aren't clear enough to go beyond what we've said here.  One might suggest though that perhaps the philosophers in general are unimpressed by the preliminary arguments for God's existence even if they aren't rigorously familiar with all the iterations that follow from them.  *shrug*

    Ben

  • The conclusion that religion is cultural to the bone is a conclusion that has to be justified in a contentious context with intellectually oriented Christians if we actually expect them to find themselves mistaken (i.e. delusional).

    Lets see we have Jesus the son of God, and god himself.So no reason would seem to exist why this Jesus son of God might not have re-birthed in another place far away from the Middle East to help spread the good news.This would have provided some proof of authenticity.

    Maybe Alaska? or Australia?.

    What reason is there given for why this doesnt ever be seen to happen, other than conclusion of the intellectually orientated Christians.

    Common sense says it seems like its very cultural to the bone ,unless you let yourself get interlectually tangled up by bias .Think it would take a real blind man not to quickly sniff that matter out.

  • The fact that Christianity only ever speads by way of moving with the human culture ,says a whole lot.Whether the intellectually orientated Christians like to admit it or not.

  • @Jayman777 - Rereading your comment, it seems that I slightly missed your point.  I apologize.  You were rebutting the idea that no one (who should know any better) considers general philosophical theistic arguments to work anymore (contrary to Eller's claim) and pointing to the religious philosophers should at least give Eller cause to explain more than his one sentence assertion contrary to everything they are currently working on.   That's fair enough.  

  • @David - Your claim basically amounts to that Eller shouldn't have even had to write a chapter on it because it's just common sense that Christianity is all culture.  Maybe that's true, but does that in any way detract from my point you quoted given that obviously that first line of defense against religion didn't work on the target audience?  If you start trying to make arguments on Eller's behalf to prove the point Eller didn't make, that will only show that ELLER needed to do that IN HIS CHAPTER.  Not on my wittle blog.

    @David - Even truth, good arguments, and legitimate science can still be portrayed as "culture."  It's really too watery a category to try and prove such extreme things.  I'm mighty suspicious that the vast majority of Christianing is passed on in terms of subjective culture and that even most sophisticated Christian philosophers have only had the opportunity to overdevelop the fiction because the memes have been riding on the backs of much less sophisticated masses of people who keep the beliefs afloat.  But how do you prove that exactly?  I wouldn't expect a Christian to believe me just because I assert it in their general direction.

    Ben

  • Even truth, good arguments, and legitimate science can still be portrayed as "culture." 

    And why would that be such a big problem Ben ?.Is anybody trying to claim something supernatural with these things?.Did anyone suggest culture had nothing to do with it ?.

    Thats beside the point.Just because science is seen to be obviously connected to culture ,doesnt do much to help explain why a supernatural faith might also always have need to be connected to human culture too.Other than suggesting it seems very human, and looks very much like its got very little to do with anything supernaturally devine.

     Maybe that's true, but does that in any way detract from my point you quoted given that obviously that first line of defense against religion didn't work on the target audience?

    But i dont see how you proved anything that isnt already well known.These delusional people obviously dont really question these things in any great depth. They prefer to simply calculate even though Jesus was God and could have himself born in the middle east to try to spread the good news.They dont wonder why it was never seen to happen anywhere else.Even though they will believe he was resurrected.

    You asking me why common sense arguments dont work with helping many of these people.Is lots like asking me why some folks were stupid enough to have continued to follow Jim Jones to their death.Dont you think many folks tried talking some common sense to those folk too, Ben?.Why would you say they didnt listen?.Wasnt the arguments put forward good enough either?.Or does all these situations seem like they match and work together in helping back up modern test claims of neuroscience ,that suggest devotion on charasmatic matters tends to help close down certain parts of the human brain.

    I`d say Eller wrote what he has because it needs to be written about more often and discussed.If you are saying Eller totally expected all of Christianity to simply fold after this book was written, well i would be the first to agree that was maybe being far to hopeful.But even so that still doesnt do much to prove Christianity isnt obviously cultural to the bone .Christianity reeks of being cultural to the bone,as do all religious faiths.

    If nothing else atleast all these books will hopefully set a few more people up along the road to be better equiped to be able to be thinking about these matters in more great depth.Sure many Christians will still come up with all sorts of reasons to try and explain these matters away.But thats what devotion does,thats why Jim Jones followers ended up dead.

    And it still dont explain why Christianity is seen to be very cultural to the bone .Dont explain at all why the God Jesus a omnipotent being that created the whole universe, obviously always still needed man to pass on the Christian faith.No strangely human culture,still seems to be the very best explaination for that.

    It dont surprise me some Christians are up in arms over this book, sniping away like they always do.Manipulating anything they can find and even managing to get some atheists backs up along the way in the old devide and rule manner. Many of these folks are trained preachers,their job is to work on getting peoples devotion inline with what they want to acheive.Do you think i read them all the wrong way Ben?.

  • @David - I'm sure even a perfect book or perfect chapter would still have plenty of Christians reacting poorly to it.  But that's just a recipe for atheist authors getting away with anything, if that's our only consideration, as though they shouldn't have any responsibilities in a culture war to at least do their part.  Obviously I'm applying standards to the best of my ability to determine just which party is at fault in any given chapter.  Don't you at least have some idea of how that might go?  Do atheists, no matter what they say or do, get full credit by your standards?  Surely not.  Did the author do a good job or did she give the opposition red meat to complain about?  In this case, Eller provided a fallacious argument in a contentious context.  What excuse is there for that?  And so I blame him.  Not Christians.  Granted, Eller doesn't have to listen to me, but on the other hand, I don't have to take down my criticism either.  So, it's all fair. 

    There's no point continually trying to convince me of Eller's conclusion as though I don't agree with it.  If you'd read my post (specifically here), you might have noticed that was Loftus' mistake.

    Ben

  • I'm sure even a perfect book or perfect chapter would still have plenty of Christians reacting poorly to it.  But that's just a recipe for atheist authors getting away with anything, if that's our only consideration, as though they shouldn't have any responsibilities in a culture war to at least do their part.  Obviously I'm applying standards to the best of my ability to determine just which party is at fault in any given chapter.

    Well if you already freely admit yourself here on your own blog that, even a perfect book or perfect chapter would still have plenty of Christians reacting poorly to it . Yet somehow expect so much better ,maybe you need to rejoin faith, because you seem to almost be best discribing expecting some sort of miracle .But you know what,you wouldnt have me arguing against it being close to whats needed.

    But im not somebody who believes in the supernatural ,and this debate has been going on now for thousands of years.However i do think some slow steady progress is still being made.

    Tell me something ,if you feel so sure you know exactly how it needs to be done,why not write the book yourself ?.Im as keen as you are to see this faith problem sorted out a bit more quickly,And if you feel you can see everyone elses mistakes so clearly why not just save all the bickering, cut right through the bullshit and simply write the book . The Atheist miracle book, by Ben.

    Obviously I'm applying standards to the best of my ability to determine just which party is at fault in any given chapter.  Don't you at least have some idea of how that might go? 

    Yeah i do but something seems a little strange here with what you are doing ,its almost like its some type of grudge match .I mean you admit yourself in all reality a perfect book or perfect chapter still wouldnt be good enough in many situations.You feel you know where everyone else made a real mess of matters and dont feel its right they get away with letting this atheist standard thing down ,yet your atheist standard seems to be not writing the book yourself but picking and bickering at anything you can find in what others wrote?.

    What with that?.What good does that do?.What will you hope to acheive?.What type of standard is that?

    Its fine sitting back saying, Do atheists, no matter what they say or do, get full credit by your standards? , whilebrewing up a catfight yourself and giving the opposition more red meat to laugh about  than they probably ever dreamed of falling right into their hands.I cant see why they would ever complain?, i mean my standard say to me its seems it little better that kiddys! in a play ground stamping their wee tootsies , and running everyone else down while making a right wally of yourself and others around you.And faithful folk already try to suggest that about all what would be likely all to happen with atheism.And you seem hell bent on proving it for them too !

    I dont know much about what the real problem is here ,but if i took a guess i`d say somehow it seems you got your back up about something personal somewhere a long the line ,somethings been said somewhere ,there is bad blood somewhere between you  ,and this is maybe your idea of gaining some sort of revenge .And you think it real smart .But let me say by my standard it seems almost about the most silly thing you or any other atheist could ever do .Like i say there will be plenty of Christians rubbing their wee hands together ,because they know while you are wasting time bickering about other atheist writers,you are not writing any atheist book yourself. Christians are masters at the old divide and rule trick, next time you find one stroking your back and love bombing you, for your wonderful effort of dishing a atheist out his just dues ,remember that fact for a moment Ben .They didnt keep going forward for thousands of years without mastering some dodgy tricks, and they didnt arrive in the last shower of rain either.

    Anyway just think about it .My advice is, you write that book Ben !.And if i happen to see any other atheist bitching about mistakes you made, rather than concentrating more on doing better himself. You can be quite sure i will be saying much the same things ive said here.

    All the best.

    David

  • @David - So...I have to write a book in order to have standards for other books?  And it's okay to use logical fallacies to attack religion as long as there's always Christians who will react poorly to even solid argumentation?  Somehow I'm still not convinced I shouldn't have standards. 

    I didn't psychoanalyze you or attack your motives and I'd appreciate if you would return the favor.  If you don't care about quality control, so be it, but please, let's not make that my problem.  If Christians are going to laugh because of the nature of my critical review, they are going to laugh mainly because of Loftus, Eller, and other atheists like you who refuse to call crap crap.  But maybe some of them will laugh at me too for thinking it is worth telling fellow atheists to have some sort of intellectual integrity. *shrug*  I guess we're all delusional in some way.

    Ben

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