August 31, 2009

  • Zeno on "Sam Harris and Christian Arrogance"


    Intro:

    Fletch_F_Fletch (FFF) came up with a list of ten arguments from the New Atheists like Dawkins, Hitchens, and Sam Harris (SH) that seemed the most worthy of further consideration amongst fellow Christian thinkers.  FFF said he was focusing on objection six at the time I got started, so I thought I would give my input on just that one to keep things simpler.  So far, four more Christians got involved in the conversation (in addition to Travis, who is FFF) and so I'll be going at it with all of them. 

    Basically, SH notes that Christians claim to know more than scientists do about the what the universe is for based on faith all the while criticizing the science establishment for being arrogant about its own claims.  The main exchange with Vox Day (VD) can be found elsewhere (link).  VD tried to divert attention to other verses advocating humility in order to cancel out the prerequisite epistemic overconfidence.  Here, Zeno tries directly to deny that the Bible has anything to say about what the universe is for. 


    Zeno said: 

    I note that in both the Old and the New Testament, the Bible is very clear that Man CANNOT understand God's reasoning or His purposes in Creation. Vox

    WAR_ON_ERROR: 8/25/09 8:23 PM:

    To support the misdirection, VD quotes some Bible verses that talk up the ignorance and humility factor, but fails to address other Bible claims such as that the heavens declare the glory of God. Obviously most Christians believe that everything that happens is all about God's glory, so it naturally follows the universe exists for that purpose and SH's claim is accurate.

    Obviously you misunderstand. Obviously, everything is all about God's Plan FOR Creation.
    Obviously, you are locked into an infinite loop of ignorance. This could end badly for you.

    WAR_ON_ERROR: 8/25/09 8:23 PM:
    I don't think VD or SH is stupid. I think we're all just human and disagree on difficult topics.

    That is a very pleasant fiction, but when people's opinions are faced with reality, some one is the sucker. There is no relativism in the Cage.

    WAR_ON_ERROR: 8/25/09 8:23 PM:
    I take it that VD is probably one of those Christian evidentialists who believes he has solid arguments for these things that don't rely on faith.

    You maybe want to read The Irrational Atheist, that can be downloaded freely from a link on this site.

    Sorry for the excess posting, but I feel like a f7cking Janitor.

    I responded:

    Hi Zeno,

    Thanks for the heads up on the link to "The Irrational Atheist."

    I don't think there are two correct answers to the question, Zeno, but this isn't a cage match as far as I know. It's a conversation. At least, that's what it is for me. People who are wrong about certain questions aren't necessarily stupid. Does everyone with the same IQ agree about everything? Don't think so. Apparently you don't think there's a such thing as honestly mistaken and I believe you might be honestly mistaken about that. ;) But to VD's credit, I believe he called SH's *statement* stupid, so perhaps I led us away on the wrong tangent. We'll call this half my fault.

    zeno: 8/25/09 9:10 PM:
    Obviously, everything is all about God's Plan FOR Creation.

    Um, right. I'm not really sure what you are getting at or how it is different than what was being claimed on your behalf by SH originally. Somehow God's plan for creation isn't what creation is for? Please explain.

    Otherwise, it seems to me when Christians aren't trying to squirm out of the implications, they freely expound upon the topic citing numerous scripture. Just type in "Why did God create the universe?" into google to see for yourself. Even Muslims get in on the action. 

    For example, just to pull something off a few random Christian links that come up:

    "The question of whether God created life on other planets is certainly fascinating. Psalm 19:1 says that "the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork." Everything that God has made, be it you and me, or wildlife, or angels, or stars and planets, have been created for His glory."

    And another:

    Isaiah 43:7(NASB)

    7 Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made."

    "It is man's responsibility then to glorify God. That's what brings God pleasure. That's why he created us. That was his purpose in creation."

    So, I'm not making crap up, dude. These are extremely typical, mainstream, orthodox Christian responses to the question that are lifted right out of the Bible.

    You sound fairly jaded, and I would appreciate not being treated like the 523 atheist jerks that came before me in your experience. That is, if you would expect me to not treat you like the 542 Christian imbeciles that came before you in my experience. Just a thought, sucker. :p

    Ben

    Zeno responded:
    WAR_ON_ERROR: 8/26/09 12:47 AM:

    Isaiah 43:7(NASB)

    7 Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made."

    "It is man's responsibility then to glorify God. That's what brings God pleasure. That's why he created us. That was his purpose in creation."

    So, I'm not making crap up, dude. These are extremely typical, mainstream, orthodox Christian responses to the question that are lifted right out of the Bible.

    Then you are being misled. The chapter quoted refers specifically to the ingathering of exiles of Jacob and Israel.

    7.All who are linked to my name, Who I have created, Formed, and made for My glory-- 8. Setting free that people, Blind though it has eyes, And deaf though it has ears"

    People often make the mistake of universalizing the specific when talking about God.

    Read the Irrational Atheist, and refuse to accept scripture out of context. :)

    P.S. I used the Jewish Study Bible

    I responded:

    Hey Zeno,

    zeno: 8/26/09 7:49 AM:

    Then you are being misled. The chapter quoted refers specifically to the ingathering of exiles of Jacob and Israel.

    7.All who are linked to my name, Who I have created, Formed, and made for My glory-- 8. Setting free that people, Blind though it has eyes, And deaf though it has ears"

    People often make the mistake of universalizing the specific when talking about God.

    Read the Irrational Atheist, and refuse to accept scripture out of context. :)

    I agree, I'm being misled, however it appears to be you who is doing the misleading. That wasn't the only verse quoted, so you are cherry picking. I'm guessing you don't take anything I say very seriously and are reading too quickly to give me a quick brush off?

    Regardless, I did realize that author had taken the verse out of context before you commented. Note the original discussion is on Sam Harris' generalization that believers *think* they know why the universe exists. And notice that VD said not even a *SPECK* of evidence had been provided to support such a crazy notion about Christians, like Sam just pulled it out of his rear end. So even mainstream Christians getting it wrong, is still more than a speck of evidence.

    Here are some of the other verses:

    Psalm 19:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.

    John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

    Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

    Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    To deny it is to deny the priority of the glory of God in all things and as I've said, nothing could be more heretical. Can I have my "reading the Bible in context" trophy now? hehe

    Ben

    Outro:

    I'm sure there will be more ahead.  So check back.

    Ben