March 15, 2007

• The Dubious Doctrine of Hell

  “The Doctrine of Hell”
  [comprehensive closing statement]
  

  Intro:
  

  This topic has multiplied onto numerous xangas.  I thought I would wrap things up with a "concise" overview.  Hopefully this is the most efficient way to digest all relevant matters pertaining to the doctrine of hell…it’s not short…but it's all to the point and covers practically everything you need to know to make up your mind on it, in my opinion.
  

  
  

  Paradigm Killer
  

  I think historically this is probably one of the top deal breakers for Christians…one of the most obvious things that make the world view completely unpalatable.  Tons of other issues are ambiguous and difficult to judge from the comfort of your own home or even in a library.  However, this easily crosses those boundaries.  It seems you either:

  0. Pretend like its not so bad:

  
  1.  Reject it because it’s evil...the obvious thing to do.

  
  

  The difference apparently is that God manages to say that without sounding crazy, right?
  

  2.  Interpret it out of the Bible.  Why not just interpret everything out of the bible you don’t like?  You really expect reading comprehension to take a dive and this problem to forever go away?
  

  3.  Mutate some trivial aspect of it so that is seems different…even though it isn’t. 
  

  
  

  4.  Mutate some important aspect of it so that it is different than the Biblical picture…aka making shit up. 

  5.  Never think about it, gloss over it, pretend like its not important or not that bad…salvation is so “easy” (even though Jesus and Paul say its not, see the quotes below) and heaven is what’s important so who cares. 
  

  6.  Accept a laundry list of irrational propositions that sometimes even contradict other parts of the Bible in order to prop it up...almost as popular.
  

  7.  Accept that God exists and he’s evil…and deal with it on those terms.  Of course this is the least popular (though some would label this Calvinism, lol).

  What’s missing?
  

  8.  Accept it rationally as it is simply impossible to do as an ethical, intellectually honest person.
  

  This is in no way just an atheistic phenomena…there are new-coming Christians that fully recognize they don’t want to get to know their personal lord and savior Jesus Christ if this is in tow.
  

  Scripture Picture
  

  
  

  Read it for yourself.  It’s always sad when most of the time I, the atheist, am the one who defends the continuity of Scripture from people that don’t know the Bible or those who try to twist scripture to mean something that it doesn’t mean.  Arguably there are a few different versions of the afterlife in the Bible especially in comparison from the OT to the NT, but we aren’t talking about contradictions here (other than the Bible says God is good and he isn’t) and obviously the doctrine of eternal damnation is the one that succeeds and trumps all others in terms of orthodoxy.  I just don’t see how you can avoid the basic implication that supposedly you are going to suffer in one way or another for what you did in this life for an infinite amount of time after Judgment Day.  And there is no possible world where this is consistent with an all powerful loving deity.  If you try to metaphoricalize it away, contextually it becomes gibberish.  Sure not every verse spells it out…but do they have to?  And not every connection directly relates to everlasting torture…but what earthly comparison is there?  And why can’t those earthly finite connections be the limited metaphors instead?  That makes much more overall contextual sense as you should soon see:

  Genesis 3:16
  Just kidding.  If God had told Eve what was going to happen to all of her billions of kids she would have had a heart attack on the spot and ruined the whole deal…ending the Bible somewhere on page 4 or 5.  lol

  But seriously:
  

  Isaiah 66:24
  "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
  

  Daniel 12:2
  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
  

  Hebrews 6:1-2
  Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
  

  Jude 7
  In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
  

  Aka...not a perfect example?  Let's let this tail wag the dog, shall we?
  

  Revelation 14:7-11
  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."
  A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.  And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.  There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
  

  Mark 3:29
  But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
  

  Mark 9:43
  If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.  And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.  And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'  Everyone will be salted with fire.
  

  That sounds just a little bit like rubbing it in doesn't it? 
  

  Matthew 25:31-46
  
  The Sheep and the Goats
  

   "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.  All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.  He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

  "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.  For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

  "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?  When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?  When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

  "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

  "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.  For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

  "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

  "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
  

  Regardless of the possible technicality that perhaps "go away" has been mistranslated, the difference appears to be no more than whether you are beaten eternally with a crow bar or with a baseball bat.  Debates like this in Christendom are like gangsters viciously attacking each other's mob boss for equally pernicious torturing tactics.  Lametastic. 
  

  Luke 16:19-31

  The Rich Man and Lazarus
  

  "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.  At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

  "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.  In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.  So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

  "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
  

  I'm sure there may very well be metaphors at work in these passages, but they must be limited as in God doesn't have to go into details of the physics of it, but you get the damned gist...and incidentally the damned gist is exactly what is being criticized. 
  

  And finally, in case you thought only Hitler will be going there:
  

  Matthew 7:14
  But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
  

  Incidentally they are all that moral majority who may be reading this post right now.
  

  And to the over-confident "miracle working" Christians we should add:

  Matthew 7:21-23

  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'  Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

  The body count of hell has to come from some where, folks.  Let's not forget the religious moderates among us:

  Revelation 3:16
  So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

  Did uh, God say he wanted you to pull the punch? 

  And if you think God will judge you fairly based on your own standards (I do mean you, Richard Carrier), consider:

  Mark 4:24
  "Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more.

  What a dick.  Just can't let those scales be balanced, can we? 

  And if you think God is intimately cultivating your soul..chew on this:

  Matthew 25:24
  "Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.

  And for you believing slackers out there:
  
  1 Corinthians 9:24
  Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
  
  No wonder it says:
  
  Philippians 2:12
  Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

  Tough shit, eh?  I quote all this in order to make the Christians who say, "its so easy, just believe" a little antsy.  Not quite feeling like an Olympic saint today?  Not so keen on 9 out of 10 people you know being royally screwed over for all eternity (or having to watch)?  Wondering why you have to play such a dangerous game without your consent that you didn't start?  Second guessing how meaningful it is to have God's grace "on your team" when it's still dependent on you?  Thinking maybe that God isn't such a great guy after all?  If you think everything is okay here...you are delusional.  A god that is okay with all of this is a god that is not trustworthy...to the extent coming through on your salvation means nothing to him.  You can quote verses that say the opposite all day long...but inactions speak louder than words.   Do we honestly expect the Bible to confirm directly:  "Yes, this is an evil doctrine and god is evil." 

  
  

  It's like apologists manage to see "Buddy Jesus" despite the obvious "Jigsaw Jesus" architexture of the situation: 

  

  Is, "The bible says elsewhere 'God is good'" really an argument?  Google forbid the Bible be inconsistent in more than one way...  In the Saw movies, Jigsaw defends himself as not a murderer, because apparently even though his victims were put in some panic inducing environment...they could have immediately seen Jigsaw's perspective, followed all the rules and saved themselves.  "I'm not a hit man...there was a 10% chance my sniper bullet could have been blown off course by the wind."  "I'm not an evil God...there was a ten percent chance you could have been saved given the convoluted circumstances I let you be born in."  Why are Christians so inept at slightly complicated moral reasoning? 
  

  Gauntlet of Evil
  

  
  

  Here’s the run down of the basic ethical problems with hell.
  

  1. Nobody knows it’s true.  Therefore nobody should be held accountable in any way.  If God’s not good enough to show up and participate overtly in history…I don’t see why he thinks its his place to have anything to do with how it ends any more than any dead-beat dad should be able to show up and tell you how to live your life.   
  2. The punishment does not fit the crime.  Even the worst of the worst of us do not deserve *eternal* punishment.  Do we really think the moral thing to do is let Smeagol fester in his cave for all eternity?  Then let's not be moral dolts and subscribe to the "perpetual earning their damnation" theory.  Its simply amazing how sick apologists are willing to leave this equation: "Well, we're done here..."
     
  3. God is ultimately at fault…he let us be born with sinful natures…we didn’t eat of the forbidden fruit…we should all have been born in Paradise and made a decision from that standpoint without the deck so stacked against our success (since few will be saved).  This isn't to say that people don't deserve any punishment, but God seems to be the only one excempt from reaping what he sows.  Apologists actually manage to convince themselves that as long as the world is "more good than bad" like only 40% of children are sexually molested, God is still a great guy.  But boy if you kinda sin just once, you are the epitome of evil. 
  4. Nobody should be allowed to “choose” such a fate.  Pretending like we are “just getting what we are asking for” does not excuse an ethical God from preventing us from making the worst possible decision ever.  I believe the term apologists aren't searching for is "intervention."  Think of your best friend...would it honor their free will to let them do this to themselves if you had the power to stop it?  Would you want to be "respected" in that way?  Just which way is that moral compass pointing that this deity supposedly gave you?
     
  5. Heaven and hell infringe on free will.  One should not have to choose between forever glorifying a deified Middle Eastern tyrant who doesn’t deserve it…and suffering forever.  There should be a neutral zone for good people who simply want nothing to do with God.  I mean who knows...what if I am wrong about who God really is...and its all just a big misrepresentation...but if you send me to hell...I'm probably not going to get the "right idea."  If its all about "the gift of God himself" maybe that third option neutral zone might make some hard-hearted critics switch sides...over time...on their own time.  What exactly is the rush?  Why does God have to be such an incredibly jealous, petty, and fascist prick?  Is that really what we learned in that prodigal son parable?  Does one size fit all?  If God wants to say he respects our free will, he can give us *real* options and apologists can stop pretending hell simply has to be on the table at all. 
     
  6. God is not human compatible.  I don't buy the whole, "God is infinitely offended by any little infraction" argument. That's not our damn problem. If I wire up the entire world to wince in agonizing pain every time you take a breathe...that's not your fault. If God didn’t want to be infinitely offended by my mere existence maybe he shouldn’t have let me be born with a "sinful nature." He’s ultimately the one stabbing himself with the knife.  No one needs to be a part of the grind of infinite anything’s. And a good God would know this and subtract himself from the equation entirely...if in fact he had some bizarre infinitely sensitive moral system. The only way he maintains his claim on perfection in this event is because he infinitely overcompensates for this character flaw of his…all the while at the expense of most of humanity for all eternity as collateral damage because he couldn’t keep things nice and simple.  If God can be complacently apathetic about the vigorous day to day suffering in the world…I don’t see why he can’t have a thicker skin in regards to how imperfect we are.  If not, its kind of like he has some kind of divine chemical imbalance.  It can't be "perfect justice" if the terms of the situation are imperfect to begin with.  Further, if God can tolerate our imperfection at all...and if even one wittle atheist dies happily and fully convicted that he/she wants nothing to do with God, and if God really has infinite resources to spare...there is simply no logical reason God can't just let it go indefinitely.  "If you love it, let it go" must be the creation of Satan, apparently. 
     
  7. Even if “hell isn’t that bad” in one way or another, this idea as presented is so easy to “get wrong” that it is unethical to not spell it out exactly how it is from the get go to alleviate emotion damning confusion for thousands of years over the vast spectrum of idiosyncratic human nature…the recipe for disaster it must have been for so many in history that maybe didn’t know how to cope with such a big bad idea on the table (perhaps you know of a few people yourself…I know I do).  Not everyone is born a moderate.  Not everyone knows that God doesn't really mean x when God says x.  If the president gives an address and says that a giant asteroid is going to hit the earth and there’s nothing we can do about it…and it solicits mass panic and chaos…but he really means that life isn’t fair and he just wanted to say that metaphorically…do we not call that extreme negligence no matter how poetic? 
  8. Children should not be taught this doctrine regardless.  Believing parents don’t know that it is true and they have a heavy influence on their children.  Feelings get set down deep and wide in childhood…the Bible isn’t the greatest at guiding people through the valley of the shadow of death if you know what I mean (at least not until you have the chance to digest several thousand years of cultural history...something grader-schoolers aren't so good at)…statistically it should be no surprise if the doctrine of hell emotionally cripples a number of people just because.  Let them deal with it as adults.  The people that deal with it and live well well don't take it that seriously and for no obvious reason.  If it’s a matter of faith…and not fact, you have no right to do that to your kids any more than you have to beat them.  Let them decide when it is easier through the eyes of an adult to deal with it if they are to “have faith” in it or not.  Just because the Bible says something is true doesn’t mean you have the right to be stupid.  Even children that grow up to be believing adults even though they were basically raped by the idea in childhood are still scarred and have to deal with that damage in one way or another…even if they never manage to point the finger at God.  "We lovingly warn them..."  You can't just slap the term "lovingly" on any phrase and expect it to carry sensible moral weight. 
     

  Gallery of FAILed Excuses (~63 entries so far)
  

  
  

  If you are new to this debate and you read the scripture verses and maybe have a little common sense…this section is quite hilarious.  I’ve been collecting all the line-item bits of absolute retardation that defense of this doctrine entails.  Beware…lest Christianity pervert your thinking skills as well for the sake of holding the fort:

  
  

  -Hell isn’t that bad.

  -that Hell has no externally induced torture

  -Eternal punishment for finite crimes is just.

  -Justice is the only thing that’s important in ethical decisions

  -People know the situation objectively, have every means to succeed and most willingly choose to go to hell...god must have some seriously bad breath.
  

  -That torture and torment are...relevently different.
  

  -“the punishment should fit the crime” is only ARU's opinion

  -the doctrine of hell is just “misunderstood”

  -being unconscious for eternity is worse than being tormented for eternity

  -only some people would prefer to not exist over being eternally tortured and they are the minority who is in the wrong!

  Note:  Matthew 26:24
  The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

  
  

  -it matters to a non-existent person that they aren’t benefiting from existing

  -that existence is inherently good even if you are trapped perpetually in the extreme of the extreme worst possible scenarios

  -preference of whether you want to not exist or suffer eternally is as subjective as whether or not you like going to the dentist

  -that a good God wouldn’t forcibly prevent someone from making the most horrible choice imaginable...
  

  -that degrees of eternal punishment really matter when you are faced with it inescapably for eternity

  -an eternity in hell doesn’t mean an indefinite period of suffering

  -since I can list verses that say God did some good things elsewhere in the Bible, that means eternal damnation is good, too...like when that serial killer helped that old lady across the street.
  

  -it’s a fact that people sin in hell even though I haven’t proven that hell in fact even exists

  -people will only blaspheme god instead of begging incessantly for mercy while being tortured in hell.

  -that eternal hell isn’t a judgment of one’s life on earth, but a continually earned phenomenon into eternity and this is supported in scripture [3rd Corithians 6:66]
  

  -that people can continue in unbelief despite being buried in the extreme reality check of hell after Judgment Day

  -that you have plenty of free time to sin while being incessantly tortured. 

  -that serving your time doesn’t wipe the slate clean

  -that there are simply no fair alternatives to infinite punishment for finite crimes

  -God isn’t responsible for the fact that his “love beams” (uncreated energies) torment those with evil hearts for all eternity…”killing them with kindness” isn’t a crime last time I checked…and it’s not like those “love beams” have an off switch (p.s. don’t think about how we don't have to feel them right now)...c'mon...see it from God's perspective for once...his omnipotent hands are tied behind his immaterial back.  Empathize with the being that needs nothing...not with pathetic humans that will be suffering eternal injustice.
  

  -that if heaven really is by definition blissful, that anyone could conceivably complain about it if sent there “against their will”

  -God doesn’t have to be moral but we should call eternal hell just

  -in terms of redeeming humanity, God has done everything you would reasonably expect Him to do, and much more.
  

  Note the sin of omission:  Matthew 11:21
  "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
  

  Also note the sin of commission:
  

  John 15:22
  If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
  

  -We deserve nothing from God and anything he does is merciful because we are all born sinners through no fault of our own.
  

  -I can’t imagine how God could have been any more merciful than he already has been and I'm all the sample range I need.
  

  -there are no atheists because Romans 1 says so.
  

  -someday humans could evolve to be just as immoral as God thus an atheist has no right to call God immoral.
  

  -human morality according to evolution could have been radically different 500 years ago.
  

  -morality isn’t objective if it doesn’t exist outside our brains…only if it exists in God’s brain. 
  

  -ARU is arguing that being just means letting criminals off the hook without punishment.
  

  -it's rather pointless to punish someone you just plan on annihilating anyway…and eternal damnation as we all know is going somewhere productive.
  

  -Hell is "inescapably bad," but "inescapably bad" isn't the same thing as "entirely bad."
  

  -a bit of profanity is worse than exposing non-adults to an endorsement of such an evil and volatile doctrine as that of the doctrine of hell.
  

  -people derive benefit from being eternally punished in hell...I shit you not.
  

  - the screaming profanities of someone that is being tortured forever are not forgivable just like that time I poked you in the eye and you blinked...the blinking was all your fault.
  

  - "God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there. There is no such thing." Happy atheists don't realize they aren't happy and aren't atheists.  And Christians are immune from the djinns of Islam.
  

  -There’s nothing wrong with being forced into a relationship with God…like an arranged marriage with the threat of execution otherwise.
  

  -People think of hell as some kind of eternal torture chamber with fire and brimstone where people are being burned alive for all eternity, which I have already emphasized is not Biblical.
  

  Note:  Re-read all those passages above.
  

  -since people in prison and those who go to traffic school blow it off, not one of the billions that will be sent there will  repent in hell either
  

  -It’s okay for god to be unjust because he’s trying to extort you into believing in him
  
  -God is infinitely sensitive, thus we deserve to pay for that.
  

  -God can get away with running someone in the ground (or significantly contributing to that end) for the greater good…even though it isn’t for the greater good…since few will be saved (as reflected in the body count of the Exodus)

  -A life sentence is equal to eternal torture…even though hell is forever…and involves incessant torture…

  - We are “hypocritical” if we don’t criticize “life sentences” as well as eternal damnation.
  
  -Hell has to exist or else life isn’t fair…thus people deserve unfair punishments to make life fair.
  

  -no one is saying that existence in hell "is completely, perpetually and inescapably miserable."
  

  Note:  Revelation 14:11

  And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."  [which this person had quoted earlier, btw]
  

  -We aren’t placed in any danger, those are your words, ARU.
  

  Note: Matthew 5:22
  But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
  

  -Salvation is easy to attain so there’s no reason to worry.
  

  Note:  Matthew 7:14
  But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.  [also read the other verses referenced above that describe salvation as being about as difficult as getting into the NBA]
  

  -We should thank our free will…and not Adam or our inherited sinful natures for our default damnation.
  

  -Since we could have made the same decision that Adam did…we all would have made the same decision Adam did.
  

  -ARU has to literally have a better blueprint of the human genome in hand in order to criticize the idea that if absolutely every soul would have rebelled from the Garden of Eden scenario…that would reflect on their designer’s shortcomings and/or intentions.
  

  -criticizing a Biblical doctrine means ARU’s moral standards are subjective and therefore meaningless.
  

  -because some Christians are not afraid of hell, there is nothing to fear.
  

  -even though most people will end up burning in hell for all eternity that is insignificant next to the grace given to the handful of people that will be saved.  No that's not selling out! 
  

  -god’s grace means there is no blackmail situation…you know, just like paying extortion money to the mafia means there won’t be any of those little accidents…
  

  -because God is trying to weave an epic tale through human history, that means he can get away with being evil.
  

  -it is hard to understand why an atheist would think God actually ought to do the right thing if he is to be considered a good God.
  

  -all of ARU’s points are based on false assumptions and not scripture.
  

  -ARU has made no valid arguments.

  -because ARU went all out and devoted a lot of time, effort, and thought to making a comprehensive polemic against the doctrine of Hell…that must “mean something” other than the doctrine of Hell is evil.  (aka, there is no such thing as the quest and fight for truth outside of Christianity and everything makes Christianity true no matter what)

  So if you can stomach believing in even half these things without a second thought, I have absolutely no problem calling you an absolute moron.  If I don’t, the green fairy takes away my “intellectual honesty” license.
  

  “Radical,” Rational, Ethical Alternatives
  

  
  

  For those of you that can fathom:
  

  1. That God doesn’t necessarily have to exist,
  2. That your god doesn’t necessarily have to exist.
  3. Or that Yahweh could be a sub-par deity (of the Olympian variety, perhaps) and could be lying about being a better deity because he knows credulous believers will eat it up…and then he can feel free to be as evil and negligent as he wants at his leisure because its guaranteed he'll be loved for it anyway.   Genius.
     
  4. Yahweh could be a sub-par deity in another sense...he's just too timid and busy perhaps to keep overzealous followers in the wake of his actions in history from screwing up what he really meant. 
     
  5. There’s also the possibility of a sub-par deity who’s been infected by the classic Cartesian demon and has no idea what he is actually doing…and he really believes he is omnipotent and omniscient and all that…because that’s what the demon feeds into his not-so-super-mind, in order to pervert malevolently this good deity’s sense of right and wrong for whatever diabolical reasons.  Thus we could have a sub-par deity in the greatness sense, who is actually good, but who doesn’t know he is being filtered by another evil entity beyond his control.    

  You know you can’t just proclaim eternal damnation good because by definition everything God does is good…one would hope that there would be a system of checks and balances in your paradigm so that one premise is accountable to other independent conclusions and vise versa.  [GASP!] Of course the problem is that if you have to judge God’s character apart from his “license to sin”:
  

  Rule #1:  God is good.
  

  Rule #2:  If God does something clearly wrong, refer back to rule #1.
  

  …then the underwhelming case for his innocence doesn’t hold up to any bit of rational scrutiny as I have clearly demonstrated here and elsewhere.
  

  Let's pretend for instance that the theistic bigots who say atheists have no basis for morality are correct and thus atheists have no way to objectively judge God...okay...but what if I am an atheist and I want to become a Christian?  And the first doctrine I accept is that God has placed the law in my heart?  I then have a valid means of saying, "The punishment should fit the crime" because my innate God given ethical standards are basically trustworthy and should be paid attention to...but low and behold this God doesn't follow his own rules and in proportion is thereby judged to be demented and sadistic.  What do I do?  How am I supposed to be perfect like my heavenly father is perfect (Matthew 5:48) if the only thing that means is not being bound by ethics?  The theist then has a much better case for not having any basis in morality than the atheist who has no such outlandish excuse.  God doesn't have to be ethical and you have to be like God...therefore...  And if God is not bound by ethics, why don't you rewrite all that scripture and all those hymns that call him good?  Why not call him amoral instead?  If our ethics are truly a reflection of God's "good nature" then it should be obvious it is completely irrational to tell an atheist that they don't know what they know about morality and there should be no reason God should not heed his own nature.  "Where morality comes from" is an entirely different debate and to deny the obvious proposition that an atheist knows the difference between right and wrong is to deny the common ground you have to be standing on for any of your bs doctrines to work (as it is an empirical claim anyone should be able to test in their own “hearts”).  And the more you deny the atheist's access to morality (because the shifting sands of evolution might shift in a few million years), not only are you off your own base but you reinforce how little you understand of a mature atheist's ethical basis.  Not to mention, any other kind of theist can basically make the same arguments...so it really doesn't matter.  No matter how unfair you play the logic game...you will lose as a Bible based Christian.
  

  But who gives a shit about knowing God is actually good?  He’s only the most important figure in your emotional life…trust should be a prerequisite.  Who says interpersonal standards are important?  Honestly… [rolls eyes]
  

  Here are some of the options that got passed up via God’s “infinite wisdom”:
  

  1. annihilationism…if you’re going to be living in bliss…who the hell cares if Hitler doesn’t exist anymore?
  2. appropriate finite punishment…then annihilationism…justice served…but not out of proportion…justice is cut off just sort of it transitioning into sadism.  Even if people have the time management skills of Batman and manage to sin while being incessantly tortured and thus earn more punishment…that should not leave out the ethics behind a mercy kill after their initial sentence had been carried out.
  3. appropriate finite punishment…then a coma of non-experience… if in the event a soul cannot be destroyed.
  4. appropriate finite punishment…then rehabilitation…if you think that there should be some long term goal in mind for the punishment.
  5. appropriate finite punishment…then a neutral zone…the sinful nature is removed and people after having paid their dues may simply do whatever they want with or without God.  Given they’ve been put through the grind of God’s fancies without their consent, surely this is the least he can do.
     

  
  

  One doesn’t have to tell God exactly what to do…I’m sure he can figure it out for himself if enough Christians pray for him to come clean...who knows, Abraham talked God out of being a dick by default once.  Maybe it wasn't a one time deal.
  

  Note:  My definition of “appropriate” means we could expect God to punish people in proportion to their evil intent, how much exactly they knew of the evil they were committing (like what rules and laws they were breaking), and the damage caused by it. An omniscient being would know exactly what this turned out to be. So for however much time you set someone back in life...you could expect those scales to be balanced after you die. Theoretically that would be fair apart from other considerations listed earlier.
  

  Note 2:  “Mercy kills” don’t require the permission of the pathetic soul stuck in their infinite rut…it only requires the “killer” to be a compassionate person and cut through the red tape and do the right thing.  To think there is merit in perpetual suffering for any reason is sadistic.  Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness has absolutely nothing to do with making sure people who wrong you suffer forever.  Arguably the only being that could possibly deserve such a fate would be God himself…and even then perhaps we’d take the moral high ground if it were in our power to do anything about it.  There is no possible world where any version of eternal damnation is compatible with an all-powerful, all knowing, good god. 
  

  Why Such a Bad Idea?
  

  People often try to justify the obtuseness of scripture with some kind of rationalization…well who would make that up?  As though because they happen to be ignorant of the sociological factors that went into the making of their religion that somehow makes an evil doctrine not evil.  If they aren't making a logical moral defense and they are just banking on the likelihood that the docrtine is true... I don’t see them coming to terms with a maltheistic worldview…since that would be the intellectually honest thing to do…I see them instead making a last ditch attempt at an excuse because they are on the emotional take and have absolutely nothing rational to say in God’s defense.
  

  The doctrine of hell probably sounded good at the time, but wasn’t thought all the way through (note it does a real number on the ethics of evangelism).  Somewhere in their zeal for righteousness they lost track of all good sensibility.  It’s seductive to the perverted consciences of the moral extremophiles of the Abrahamic religions who aren’t exactly the keenest critical thinkers of history. 
  

  A.  Very few people that believe it is true also think they are going there.

  B.  It is a natural "reciprocal" to the idea of heaven and makes the afterlife a simple story of "the good guys go here" and "the bad guys go there." 

  C.  It works and has worked as a means by the "upper management" of the religions to control people.  Maybe the priestly class believed in it...maybe they have their own personal theistic beliefs.  Who knows.

  D.  It is the helpless and pathetic man's answer to the problem of "getting the guy" that got away with some terrible crime.

  So yes...its not the exact same "wish fulfillment" category as heaven is, but it just pays different bills in different ways and still qualifies as "make-up-able."

  It also sounds about like something Yahweh would do if you objectively review his OT exploits.  The Bible thinkers of the ages have no choice but to be influenced by the ingrained structure of those mal-ethics.  My favorite example is Paul.  You know this is all jumbling around in his head and it doesn’t all sweep under the carpet.  He has to accidentally come to a bullshit conclusion somewhere (actually many somewheres) and surprise, surprise we get verses like these:
   
  Romans 11:32
  For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
  

  Right, so we are placed in danger by God so Jesus can jump out and be the superhero…  Notice if you read the next few verses how Paul copes with this dubious proposition.  It’s hilarious.  My point is even Biblical writers can’t bebop around in these ideas without coming to basically the same conclusions.  But instead of rejecting it…they find some dubious way to accept it...and their modern counterparts are no different.
  

  Maybe there are more complexities and idiosyncrasies that could be pulled from history…but does it matter?  This is more than enough to reject Christianity wholesale and many former Christians have done just that.  For those of you that are still tempted to buy the idea out of fear of divine retribution…remember…what if God wants you to reject it?  What if he expects you to?  What if he wants you to be a good, honest person no matter the threat (1 Peter 3:17)?  What if it’s all just a big test of your moral and intellectual integrity?  It’d be a bummer to fail.

  Outro:

  One wonders what I expect to accomplish through such a diabolical post like this...and the most probable output of my Christian readers is what it always is...they will either be silent or will be driven to even greater levels of insanity in order to maintain their status quo (which has some meager entertainment value).  It is always a bizarre thought to think of what must be going on in those misguided clock wheels desperately scrounging to find some ridiculous way to keep Jesus in the bank.  How long can 1+1 not equal 2...cue "mission impossible" music...and be reminded of scientology for some reason...  It's a shame when something so false has to be true for them.  Oh well...at least the fence sitters out there can get a nice clear view before they get buried in such a bad worldview...and the atheists can just laugh at the whole mess of it all. 

  
  
  Who knows...maybe someone will actually "get it" and repent of their bogus belief system.  

  Ben

  • 2:01 am
  • 17 Comments