Saturday, 03 July 2010

  • (argument map) The Logical Problem of Evil (updated: version 9)


    Intro:

    Look out Alvin Plantinga and affiliates.  Your reign of sophistry is over (*giggles*).  I promised to go back to this, and I meant it.  I do eventually get back to things when I'm ready for it (or when I'm not really busy, you know, not being online). 

    When evaluating whether or not the Christian hypothesis that a good God exists is legitimate, there are many approaches.  There are evidential arguments from evil, Biblical arguments from evil, doctrinal arguments from evil, and the ever elusive logical argument from evil which has to be airtight.  Christians and intellectually honest atheists (and whomever else is interested in a solid argument) should be concerned with these five questions (and maybe others) when evaluating my argument map:

     A:  Is my definition of God good enough for this argument?

    B:  Is my definition of moral perfection good enough for this argument?

    C:  Have I sufficiently established that at least "one drop" of evil or greater exists?

    D:  Have I committed any logical fallacies in my reasoning?

    E:  Have I boxed in all possible objections (even unknown ones) in a perfectly logical way?

    It should also be noted that this is an ontological and logical argument from evil that necessarily incorporates the concept of divine simplicity as well. 

    Notice that all objections are labeled with numbers and letters and it would be greatly appreciated if any interested parties would label their responses or objections appropriately based on the established system.  Notation may slide around a bit as the argument map becomes more elaborate and new objections and responses are plugged in.  Please point out my spelling errors or if I mess up the numbering system (or if you have a better idea for a numbering system, please present it).

    Enjoy (click on the image to embiggen): 

            

    Archive:

            

    Outro:

    I will be reposting revisions right here!

    If successful, I hope to prove that the entire enterprise of investigating and/or defending any theodicy of any kind is a philosophical fool's errand. 

    Ben

Comments (44)

  • soccerdadforlife

    I have a problem with premise one.  I don't know what you mean by "moral."  Also, you seem to have a whole host of enthymemes in that premise.  Who defines what "moral" is?  How does "moral" relate to "evil?"  Is any man competent to judge others--(especially including God!)?  How does knowledge relate to competency as a judge?

  • WAR_ON_ERROR

    @soccerdadforlife - Didn't I define what moral (at the very least) is in premise 2?   

  • soccerdadforlife

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - No, I still don't know what you mean by "moral."  What is your basis for thinking that something is evil or good?  Can you define good/evil without relying on a biblical understanding?  Or do you accept the biblical understanding of good/evil and seek to establish that believing in God is absurd or that the way that the Bible views good/evil is absurd?  If you avoid using the biblical definition, then you have the problem of getting others to accept your definition.  If you accept it, then you may still not understand the definition, since a lot of exegesis would be involved.  I think that the problem is a can of worms.

  • WAR_ON_ERROR

    @soccerdadforlife - It is an internal critique that doesn't rely on external definitions of evil.  So it doesn't really matter if "moral realism" is viable in naturalistic terms.  Hence, no can of worms.

  • soccerdadforlife

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - I would say that, generally, you are trivializing complex stuff.  My reply should give you a hint that your argument is inadequate.  Do you want Bryan involved?  He always gives helpful feedback, in my experience.

  • WAR_ON_ERROR

    @soccerdadforlife - Yeah, I'd like this as robust as possible.  I'm sure Bryan will find every little hole if they are to be found.

  • Jayman777

    Premise 1:  Doesn't classical theology define God as goodness itself because He perfectly conforms to His essence (pure actuality)?

    Response 5:  You seem to be relying heavily on a very narrow definition of the word "perfect."  If this is the best possible world then it would still be accurate to say that God is entirely without fault or defect (definition 1a from Merriam-Webster).

  • musterion99

    Objection 3A is correct in that freewill is the crux of the reason.

    In Response 3A, you fail to see the disconnect of God creating beings with their "own" freewill to do evil, and God creating evil. It seems to me like atheists continually stumble over this point. It's as though they aren't capable of truly understanding freewill. And in the case that God does exist, you are convincing yourself that you are able to judge God as not being perfect because you, in your limited knowledge of not understanding God's ways, have made a definitive conclusion that because you don't understand it, therefore God can't be perfect. God has "temporarily" allowed evil to exist. After Judgment Day, it will not ever exist in heaven for the rest of eternity.

  • bryangoodrich

    I'm too sober and under slept to shift the map over to the right, so I'll just start on the left-hand side for now.

    While the response to the classic theology may be to say that we have to give up part of it, that need not be the case. It could be that our interpretation of it is wrong. That is a response I'm sure we've all seen before: i.e., what we consider to be evil actually isn't evil in the eyes of God. Therefore, God remains pure, and it is our perception of evil that is in error. This sort of goes to what SDFL was getting at with "what is morality?" We need to have a clear definition of good and evil.

    It is true that premise 2 does inform us that, at least with regard to God creating man, we are supposed to be refrain from "impurity," but that still leaves the concept of "good" (pure) nebulous. That passage also needs to be taken in context. It may not be itself a moral maxim so much as a statement about conduct of people. So the maxim is that people should avoid impurity. This is characteristically different than a statement that is making a metaphysical claim about the nature of moral reality (i.e., that there isn't evil in the world or shouldn't be). Musterion brings up a good point in that God may be all good, but that does not require it to avoid putting evil in the world. As she says, the evil in the world can find its source in man, in which case the argument from evil needs to attack the crux of that issue: why does God allow his creation to be evil? This is where apologetics steps in to address that to have freewill requires allowing us to make errors, to be impure, to fail, etc. In permitting that we can learn, grow, love and be independent of just being made to be good. Otherwise, the moral maxim that we should avoid impurity wouldn't make sense if we were designed to be pure. We wouldn't even have a morality; we wouldn't be autonomous!

    Of course, this would still leave open the interpretation where God condemns you for your failures that he permitted you to do in the first place. That is where I find the argument from evil most significant: how can one receive an eternal punishment for a human mistake? So even if we admit, for the sake of argument, that the Bible is correctly interpreting morality and human creation, then we still face the problem whenever anyone interprets the issues regarding punishment and hell, etc., because such an interpretation is so far repugnant that it demands we refuse God. It isn't going to be a logical argument since it is contradictory, but who the hell would submit to a God that says "here, I'll leave it up to you to do this right, make you so that you are designed to fail, and if you don't self-correct I'm going to make you suffer for eternity!" Yeah, fuck you God. That is about the only response a rational human being can have! Of course, not everyone interprets it that way. Usually fundamentalists make this interpretation. I don't think it is as widespread, but who knows what the reality of those proportions are (but fundamentalists are a minority; them with Catholics make up the simple majority, roughly).

    So the argument from evil is not an attack on the fact that evil exists and it is incompatible with God existing. The argument most telling is the one that attacks specifically how God relates to there being evil in the world--namely, a God that demands an infinite punishment for a finite crime should not be a God to which anyone wants to submit. Those that do under those interpretations must have something wrong with their moral compass. Upon other interpretations God can coexist just fine with evil in the world. Those qualitative differences between interpretations must be recognized so that we know which parameters lead to which paltry versions of God.

  • bryangoodrich

    @soccerdadforlife - I'm subscribed so I do get updates, and if it has to do with logic or ethics of course I'll get there eventually. I've been busy lately. I couldn't actually read the picture from my phone very well at all, which is why I had to wait to get on the computer to see. I don't do that much anymore lol

  • anonymous

    I'm still unconvinced that there is a valid logical argument from evil.

    Why must a Christian accept premise 2?  How do you show that it is impossible that there could be some greater good which could only be achieved by permitting some amount of evil?

    Why should a Christian accept your definition of moral perfection?  Couldn’t someone morally perfect still choose to prevent a murder if she only had time to either prevent the murder or stop a shoplifter?  She would have allowed a preventable evil, but was constrained in such a way that she needed to allow the small evil in order to prevent a greater evil and bring about the best possible outcome.  You can define moral perfection as either always making the perfect moral choice, or as bringing about an outcome without any evil.  Since we typically evaluate moral agents by whether they always make the morally best decision, the former seems like a better definition.  In that case, God could still be perfectly good without “grading on a curve”.

    In Response 1B_2 it seems like you’re just saying that the universe intuitively seems morally ambivalent to you.  Many Christians intuitively see God’s love exemplified in all parts of the world.  For it to be a valid logical argument from evil, you need to prove your point, not just beat Christians over the head with your intuitions.

  • StrokeofThought

    The argument hinges on an equivocation in the word 'evil'.  Christians don't think there is actually anything that is evil.  What I mean by that, is that there is nothing in the creative order which isn't morally justified for God to have permitted or actively created.


    Of course, Christians talk about things as being evil or not evil because that is how it seems from our perspective.  If a man kills his father - who led a good life - to receive his inheritance, he has done an evil thing.  But if that man is eventually led through a story of redemption, the question becomes, is the world in which that story happens one worth actualizing?  With some details to be filled in, I would say it is one worth actualizing.  It has a deep moral worth to it, one in which the man made a wrong decision and then redeemed himself once he realized his wrongdoing. 


    So the narrow instance of the man killing his father is an evil instance.  But is the whole story an evil one?  One a person would be wrong to actualize?  I don't think so.  That's why we don't think there's anything which is in the ultimate sense 'evil' - from God's perspective, when all the features of the world are filled out, the world is one which it is good to have. 


    And why is it good to have despite all the the things that go on that we (humans) call evil?  Because all of the virtues there are, the entire kinds of lives we live with their risk and moral and spiritual intensity, and all the stories and poetry that have ever been written - these flourish because of the evil that is in the world.  If we didn't live in the atmosphere in which we live, with all of the bad things that happen, a serious amount of value in the world would be irrevocably lost.  We wouldn't be able to help one another, be responsible for one another, or love in any significant sense at all.  I think it takes a lot of very hard thinking to wonder whether we would really want to throw all that away. 


    So Christians don't think there actually is any evil.  So God fulfills the second premise: he has avoided all evil.  I would say bad things happen: the world is a conflation of bad-making properties and good-making properties.  But the bad-making properties are outweighed in all cases by the good-making properties, and nothing actually evil will have happened.

  • WAR_ON_ERROR

    @soccerdadforlife -@Jayman777 - @musterion99 - @bryangoodrich - @Inquiring Infidel - @StrokeofThought - Thanks for all the feedback.  I've updated the argument map accordingly.  

  • musterion99

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - Your response to me in 3B_1 doesn't seem to make sense as a reply to what I said. It seems to be a red herring. That would be like saying if a father had a son who murdered somebody, the father is responsible for the freewill actions of his son.

    In Objection 3B_2 (you forgot to put my name in that one), your response is moot in my opinion. You say it presupposes God. Well of course it does. The whole map does. The answer to your other question, in which "you" presuppose God, is that yes, if you're a bible believing Christian, you accept anything God does, knowing that you don't have the infinite knowledge and wisdom that he has. For an atheist, it doesn't matter because they don't believe God exists in the first place.

    Your response in 3B_3, again makes no sense to me because you are presupposing and judging God as being imperfect, when that is just according to your own conclusions and cannot be substantiated. You then appeal to response 5A_1 where it appears that you refuse to accept the possibility that God can be without error, instead of acknowledging that it's possible you're wrong and he can be without error in spite of your own perceptions of believing he has error.
    You then try to use the analogy of a straight line in comparison to God. To me, that fails. We can understand what a straight line is, but we cannot understand what an infinite being that spoke the universe into existence is. You then say that "it's not accurate to say that if a perfectly good God existed he would be without fault or defect because apparently Christians have to conclude that faults and defects are logically necessary."  I already covered this when I said - "You fail to see the disconnect of God creating beings with their "own" freewill to do evil, and God creating evil."

  • bryangoodrich

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - You may want to add an Objection 0DB such that:

    Christians or non-Christians claiming something "evil" does not necessarily imply it is actually evil in the eyes of God.

    We clearly have a discord between what is actually the case and what is perceived to be the case. Of course we have to question whether we know something is evil, but that is a fundamental paradox: we don't know. Agnostics and many Christians are willing to accept this ignorance, while still believing in God (or not). To claim something actually is the case is tantamount to claiming to have knowledge of the case. Anyone that claims as much puts themselves into a very difficult position because then they need to justify how it is the case that such perceived things are, in fact, evil. The fundamental question arises: how do you know God perceives that as evil?

    I just get reminded of something Joe Rogan said ("Talking Monkeys in Space")

    "Maybe God made a monkey that doesn't like to think it's a monkey and lies a lot."

    Sure, some people think God gives them insight, and they'll claim to know something of the mind of God. They're probably full of shit. They can believe it all they want, but it isn't knowledge, nor warrants such a status. If it isn't knowledge, no one can claim it to be how God perceives his creation. Therefore, the response that what Christians claim is evil is what God perceives as evil does not follow.

  • Jayman777

    Response 0A:  Objection 0A equates classical theology with the Aristotelian-Thomistic (A-T) perspective.  From this perspective, it is not true that everything perfectly conforms to its essence. Goodness is defined.  More importantly, God's existence is certain if A-T metaphysics are true.  In other words, the problem of evil is not a problem.  This form of classical theology has to be attacked at its metaphysical roots.

    Response 5A_1:  My objection did not require a new word for perfection to be created.  It relied on the very first definition from Merriam-Webster.  I am assuming that you think the problem of evil disproves the existence of a morally perfect God.  If this is the case then you must show that this is not the best possible world, for if this is the best possible world then God is without fault or defect.

    Response 5A_1A:  You falsely assume that the theistic response does not still view God as perfectly moral.  We do view God as perfectly moral but realize that the best possible world may contain necessary evils.  By way of an imperfect analogy, it's as if you are saying a person is not morally perfect because he killed someone in self-defense while the theist is saying that the person could still be morally perfect because killing in self-defense is justified (a necessary evil).

  • StrokeofThought

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - 


    Your response is that if what I said is true, there's nothing to punish on judgment day.


    Agents are still responsible for their evil actions even if on the whole it is a good thing that the world exists.  A man killing his father can fit into a world that is worth having.  But if the son doesn't repent, he is still morally culpable for his actions, and should be punished. 


    But the fact that there is an evil agent in the world is irrelevant if the world on the whole is a good one.  A narrow instance of evil is only an objection to God's existence if it entails that the whole set of features that comprise the world would make for a world that God would morally unjustified in creating.  I don't think narrow instances of evil do entail this, given the kinds of arguments I gave above about why narrow instances of evil allow good things which we would otherwise not be able to have.


    So you are missing a link from narrow instances of evil (there being evil agents who perform certain evil actions) to your conclusion that the world is one God would be unjustified in creating.

  • WAR_ON_ERROR

    @musterion99 - Updated.

    @bryangoodrich - I've clarified some of the language to make it clear I'm addressing mainstream Christian conceptions of God.  Obviously this argument does mean to address all possible conceptions of divinity.

    @Jayman777 - Before I update the argument map on your first point, from the A-T perspective, what is an example of something that does not conform to its own essence? 

    @StrokeofThought - Updated.

    In general, to everyone, I've done a lot of work re-working the map to not be redundant and to make it more explicit at every step of the way.  Hopefully I've succeeded.  It is an interesting challenge (to me at least) to make it all work coherently together.  Thanks for participating!

    Ben

  • bryangoodrich

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - Well, now that I've worked my way over to the right-hand side of the map, I do have something to say about response 3B_1A on responsible parenting. It seems a bit out of place to impose upon God our traditional values of good parenting, because to achieve that generalized maxim that "if we could make our children behave perfectly moral, then we are obligated to make them behave perfectly moral" may require that we erase their freewill. So then we are faced with a decision: to have freewill or not, and God will take care of the rest. Clearly freewill is presupposed to have a great significance; so to have freewill requires allowing human failure to occur. How God handles that (say, Floods or Apocalypse) is still questionable and suspect, but the fact still remains: we are in no position to impose a moral maxim on God's parenting.

    This all also brings up a policy issue: should God be an interventionist? Atheists seem to criticize God a lot about what he's not doing when there is suffering in the world--as if it is his responsibility to prevent suffering. Who says God is supposed to intervene? Certainly he is supposed to have the power to, and by not intervening does not mean he is too weak, lax or apathetic. It still is a fundamental challenge: is he supposed to intervene? I rarely ever see anyone justify why God is morally obligated to prevent anything, other than some loose statement about "suffering exists, God is all loving, and any caring person would prevent suffering if they could." Well, says who? That is wholly unrealistic, regardless of one's capabilities. For one, the evils we face, the suffering we incur, and the tragedy of life is what makes life worth living. If we lived in a paradise without worry or fear, we'd be some mindless dumb animals growing fat on our apathy to do anything. No one struggles to achieve greatness if greatness is handed over to them on a golden platter. Maybe God knows enough that a more hands off approach is better for humanity in the long run, even if he intervenes occasionally or in small ways, if at all. I mean, if he did it right, he wouldn't have to do a damn thing! Tragedy may be built into it. Life sucks (or, as Buddha says, life is suffering), and maybe that is a good thing after all.

  • WAR_ON_ERROR
  • Zerowing21
  • bryangoodrich

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - What is obscene about needing supervillains so we can appreciate superheros? Just consider the counterfactual: what if there were no villains? A superhero would be superfluous if not even existent as a superhero. What is a moral world without sin? It wouldn't be morally perfect; it would be morally neutral! That, I fear, is where this morality argument seems to lead, but I fail to see how a morally neutral world would be a morally perfect world. So you cannot have good without evil, and if God's creation is to be good, then there must be evil. Otherwise, there's just creation with neither. 

  • musterion99

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - I believe 3B_1A is another red herring in reply to my comment. What you described as perfect will is not freewill but actually limited will. If we have true freewill, we must be free to choose evil.

    In 3B_2A you say you are just evaluating. Ok, well so am I. I'm responding to your evaluation with my evaluation.

  • Jayman777

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - If I drew a straight line on a piece of paper it would not perfectly conform to the essence of a line.

  • StrokeofThought

    "It may be worth it to you and me, but "on balance" concepts are not concepts of moral perfection by their very nature and hence cannot justify a morally perfect God."


    For any action that an agent might perform the action is either morally justified, morally neutral, or morally unjustified.  There aren't any other options.  A morally perfect agent is one that performs no morally unjustified actions.


    What makes an action morally justified?  There exist certain good-making properties in the world, such as an instance of something being a kept promise, something being pleasurable, something being an increase of a virtue, when something issues respect another agents deserves, and so on.  Wherever these properties occur they tend to make the action that would instantiate them morally justified.


    Oppositely, there are also bad-making properties.  These include things like something tending to cause pain, the breaking of a promise, disrespecting an agent, and so on.  Wherever one of these properties occur they tend to make an action morally unjustified.


    There are lots of both kinds of properties, and then of course there are also morally neutral properties.  For instance, that the car you are considering buying is a green one makes no moral difference to the situation.  And so on for lots of other obviously morally neutral properties.


    When there is an action we are considering doing that will instantiate both good-making and bad-making properties, it becomes an action for us to contemplate morally.  Is it a morally justified action?  Many famous ethical scenarios are predicated upon such combinations of good-making and bad-making properties, such as the one in which a train is headed for five people, and it is up to you to switch its direction so it will only kill one.  There are good-making properties and bad-making properties to weigh and consider, and the fact that both of them are a part of the action sometimes makes the answer unclear.


    So the question is, are there any actions which include bad-making properties which are good/morally justified to do?  Yes, there are.  It is good to study for a test, even though it will cause you stress.  It is good to give blood, even though it makes you lose blood and there are risks associated with it.  It is good to fight in just wars.  It is good to go to the dentist.  It is good to lie to save someone's life (in many cases, at least).  It is good to fight off a would-be rapist.  And so on, and so on, and so on.


    So whether or not there is something which is - in itself - a bad-making property in the world does not matter.  Why?  Because God did not just actualize that instance of the world, he actualized the whole world.  That is the action under evaluation.  That action is one, like all others, which is either morally justified, morally neutral, or morally unjustified.  In order to have an argument which impugns God's moral perfection, your conclusion must be that it was morally unjustifed.   To do this, you have pointed to instances of evil, and also to the fact that some agents in the end will be judged as totally corrupt.  However, this doesn't get you close to your conclusion.  Why?  Because there are a lot of other properties in the world which you have left out which make the world one which God was morally justified in creating. 


    Now, if there are any bad-making properties in the world that are unnecessary for the existence of some good-making property, then God is morally culpable for allowing it when he didn't need to.  The problem is that it seems bad-making properties are so inextricable from the achievement of certain good-making properties, that they have to be in the world if we are going to have those good things.  And many of those good things seem very worth having, as mentioned above. 


    So I think God's action of creating the world is analagous to many of the moral decisions we have to make; good-making and bad-making properties coincide all the time.  And there are some actions with bad-making properties that are morally justified.  As long as that's the case, you don't have an argument.  The mere fact of a bad-making property occurring in the world gives you nothing, since there are counterexamples to the proposition, "Any agent A who performs an action T that brings about about any bad-making property P is necessarily a morally flawed agent in that respect."  I can bring about P and still have done nothing wrong.


    So to get to the conclusion that God is morally unjustified in having created this world, you need to either argue the bad-making properties in the world outweigh the good (the evidential argument from evil), or argue that there are bad-making properties instantiated which lead to no good thing at all (a claim I am nearly certain no human has the warrant to make).  As it is, there has been no good argument given that God is not morally perfect, given the way the world is.

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