Wednesday, 25 April 2007
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Everyone is an Atheist, Or Are They?
Polemical note, for atheists
Intro:
The polemic I’m going to address is one I rarely use because it only has rhetorical force on the pop-culture level. I don’t blame anyone for using it. Bringing in the common ground emotional hedges already in place for your average theist can be useful and using this bit is a very quick and potent way to do that. However…there are problems. And for those interested…those atheists that may have no idea what to do when a theist doesn’t respond how they expect…here’s some polemical advice:
Polemic: a controversial argument, as one against some opinion, doctrine, etc.
Thus, here is the “card” you may choose to play:
Atheist: “Everyone is an atheist when it comes to thousands of other unpopular gods. I’ve just dismissed one more for basically the same reasons you dismiss all those others.”
Of course…some theists’ knee jerk reaction is of course complete denial:
Theist 1: Nuh uh. I’m not an atheist. (Dostoyevsky_had_it_rough…dead link, sorry)
Atheist: So you think these other gods exist?
Theist 1: No.
Atheist: Then you are an atheist in regards to these other gods.
Theist 1: Nuh uh! I’m not an atheist.
Atheist: Whatever you say…[dramatically roll eyes]
_______________________________________________________Sam Harris dropped the ball a bit on this one when he was on the Colbert Report. It seemed like perhaps he was a bit nervous…who knows what he’s going to confront, right? Not exactly a serious conversation, but here’s an alternative route:
Theist 2: Nuh uh. My god is just better than those gods. (Colbert, henotheism)
Atheist: The Bible says there are no other gods but Yahweh (Isaiah 45:5).
Theist 2: Oh c’mon, that’s just what my god tells dumb Christians to keep things nice and simple…just a little white lie…
Atheist: Notice also that if there are other gods…then what happens when one religion is doing better than another? Does that mean that god is now more in power? When your prayers to one god fail…would you try a few others?
Theist 2: Of course not, I’m not disloyal.
Atheist: Even if it’s pretty “clear” that Allah must be kicking ass in the spiritual realm? Islam, if I’m not mistaken is doing quite well in numbers these days. Are you sure you don’t want to get in before the Islamic Judgment day?
Theist 2: We’ll just wait and see…
Atheist: Sure you will.
Fortunately one does not come across many liberal henotheists…
_______________________________________________________The following is of course the most appropriate response from orthodox Christianity:
Theist 3: Nuh uh. Those “gods” might be demons in disguise with various failed anti-god campaigns throughout history. (Robert Turkel)
Atheist: Even the ones that solicit good behavior?
Theist 3: Perhaps God accepts them despite their error.
Atheist: Then why in the world doesn’t God just come to them and correct their errors from the top down via separate but entirely consistent ways? Isn’t this market opportunity? Why be the author of confusion dishing out separate and conflicting confirmatory visionary experiences?
Theist 3: God works in mysterious ways.
Atheist: Mysterious…as in confusing?
Theist 3: God is not the author of confusion. Man is.
Atheist: So…man can find is way to God on his own without God drawing him?
Theist: Uh…
Atheist: I see you’ve retracted your “maybe.”
Theist 3: Maybe.
Atheist: Thus we have demons perpetrating different versions of theism that solicit good behavior and your god has absolutely nothing to do with it?
Theist 3: Uh…
Atheist: And these people are going to be damned by it? For their own ignorance…despite having participated in the theism presented to them?
Theist 3: Well maybe God draws them to him…but not via their false god.
Atheist: And the demons are cool with this? They don’t mind cooperating in this salvation?
Theist 3: Well maybe these people are just mistaken and there isn’t even a demon behind it.
Atheist: Thus…you are an atheist towards these kinds of gods…
Theist 3: Sometimes…yes.
Atheist: Was that so fucking hard to admit?
Outro:
It’s so easy to win debates when you control what everyone says, eh? Lol
Ben
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Comments (23)
However...I'll try to work in some other topics I've been putting off. My biggest problem is...I think too big. So when it comes to politics...or something else...I want to do a macro processing of the data...which takes nearly forever...and when there is info I know is not easy to come by that I would want to balance the picture...I lose interest.
Small thoughts are difficult to manage. Like this post here. I had to peel myself away from reviewing every Sam Harris video. Thus...we have one little topic. Whew. Didn't think I could do it.
I think its silly to think we'll lose access to the internet. No one but Jesus is that powerful.
I have no idea who would make a good president in 2008.
ARU
I've been having an Alex Jones night myself here. The man's got the right questions, but no one seems to want to answer them. One of the things I find puzzling about one of the things he has exposed is the new Illuminati, or skull and crossbones, they meet in the woods in Calif, under high security. I have to ask myself what all these movers and shakers do out there and why they do it? He snuck in and documented their activities, and it seems rather cultish to me. When they are confronted with this question about what they are doing, they all get extremely upset and attempt to poison the well.
I am working on putting together a couple of bits of info at the moment. The oil shortage, the police state we seem headed for, and 911. I think that somehow 911 was engineered, or allowed, in order to get the American people behind Bush's war effort, which if I am right has only just begun, and the significant loss of our freedom is inevitable. They will use our own safety or insecurity about our safety and our children’s safety to take away our freedoms. Patriot act, tapping cell phones, restricting internet access and so on.
It’s fascinating and pertinent.
I didn't read your blog for today I am just responding the comment you left on my page...
"The Biblical God is going to make everyone who disagrees with him suffer in hell for all eternity...and as a Christian you have to condone that. And that makes you a passive bigot by default."
It is dangerous when people start talking like this and as a Christian it frightens me a little that I am hearing more and more people starting to talk like this. Maybe you think I'm being paranoid but it sounds like that if you had it your way there would be no religion allowed in this country. Regardless of whether you like it or not we have freedom of religion in this country. You may think this a strange response but the more I see people talking and saying things like "because you are a certain religion you are a bigot" it makes me think people are going to try and undermine our religious freedom. It appears that all many atheists will accept is atheism and only atheism and if you don't like it you shouldn't have any rights. If that's not what you are saying by calling me a "passive bigot" then please explain what you mean.
If I seem offended then I understand but I am not offended. You can call me what you like, but what concerns me is that you, and many other atheists, think that religion is a problem that needs to be dealt with. If this country is to stay free you have to step back and be prepared to hear others points of view regardless of whether you think it is ridiculous or not.
After all that...I will respond to the quote of you I put at the top. A bigot would WANT you to go to Hell but I very much do not want you to. I think you focus too much on that aspect of Christianity...yes it is true and you must accept Christ to avoid it but this is only a small part of Christianity. However, you know the story and so me typing all of this is going to mean nothing to you and you will probably spit it back in my face.
Mattylockharty-
If it turns out true, why is it dangerous? Not that it is. I think we all want freedom, we just have very different metaphysical world views and atheist think theists waste a lot of time worshiping a God who by defenition doesnt really need you or anything, while the world goes to hell. Personally I dont think that makes you much of a moral judge. I think what ARU said is the truth, you have to condone the dictators whims else suffer yourself. One thing good about the Jesus story is that he didnt seem so concerned with his own fate as most Christians seem to be.
Da Vinci,
1. First things first...if what turns out to be true?
2. Never said I was a moral judge.
3. Why are you more of a moral judge? Truth is you don't want anyone telling you you are wrong about anything but you want to tell me that myself and millions of others are wrong for believing in something that you can't find evidence for. English has a word for that...hypocrisy.
4. What dictators are you talking about? What countries are you referring to whose whims I am a slave to?
5. Jesus is the son of God. What fate are you referring to? His eternal fate or his earthly fate? If you are referring to his earthly fate then you are wrong he was extremely concerned about it. He sweated drops of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane when He was praying to God. If you are talking about his eternal fate then I would say, He's God and he knew he'd be resurrected.
Think that about sums it up.
You may not want 90% of the population to go to hell...but you think we deserve to. I'm sure racists don't *want* people to be black...but they just gotta do what they gotta do, right? Sure...we "all" deserve to go to hell in the Christian worldview...but God is oh so merciful...to those who see things his way. That's still mega-bigotry you have to condone. All I'm doing is pointing out the logical incoherence of your case. It's like a dude saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is." You are so worried about being slightly discriminated against in this life, but it doesn't seem to phase you one bit that everyone that doesn't agree with you in the next life is eternally more screwed than anyone could ever make you in this one. Am I supposed to feel sorry for you?
For the record, the only thing I want outlawed in this country in regards to religion is any law that is *dependent* on any religious proposition that has no counterpart in the secular world. In other words, laws should be based on common ground rationality and evidence we all have...not fantasy. If you think your morality corresponds to the real world...you should have no problem with a standard like that. But consider...when something like gay marriage is up for voting on...where's the evidence in other countries where its already legal that it causes the downfall of civilization? Where's the evidence its any more evil than the exploits of heterosexual marriage? Where's the natural evidence that it is morally wrong? Where's the evidence? Where's the evidence? Where's the evidence? Got nothing but the divinely mandated prejuidices of some ancient meta-scam book or two? Sorry. Not good enough. If after all this you hear, "I want you thrown into a concentration camp and incinerated," you've read too far into what I've said. All I want is the suffering and injustices of this life to take priority over the next.
And btw, if you aren't a moral judge, Matty, how do you make moral decisions?
ARU
ARU,
I'm going to work backwards.
1. I get my morality from the Bible...a book you call a "meta-scam."
2. I am not a moral judge, but I will inform others of what THE moral judge says in His word.
3. How do you make moral decisions with no higher authority to point to than humans? To me, if that's all there is then there is no point to anything.
4. a. I love the question you ask me over and over again..."Where's the evidence?" I'll get to the evidence in a second, but first I want to know how you can justify this statement in your logic "Got nothing but the divinely mandated predjudices of some ancient meta-scam book or two. " How can something be divinely mandated and yet be a meta-scam. I'm not sure what you meant by that statment but I thought it an interesting side note.
b. Evidence in the world for homosexuality being wrong. First of all homosexuality is a sin like any other sin. I lie, I cheat, I steal an apple...it's all the same as homosexuality. You aren't going to argue with me that lying, cheating and stealing are wrong, right? Here is my evidence that homosexuality isn't natural or morally right...Vaginas were given to women and penises were given to men. Now, if you aren't familiar, the vagina gets wet with natural lubricants prior to the penis going into it. Which is strange that the penis fits quite nicely into the vagina and it feels quite good like it is supposed to be there or something...funny huh? Oh and on top of all that the only way to reproduce the human race, if you are into that sort of thing, is by getting a sperm(which comes from males) and an egg(which comes from females, you know the ones with the vaginas) to come together and grow into a human being. Conicidentally the baby naturally grows inside the mothers womb. Nature says that the best way to produce a kid or to have good sex is get with a woman. That being said...I don't single out homosexuals from other sinners. It is difficult to understand why a man would want to have sex with another man but then again I have lied and many people don't understand the desire to lie about something. Just because I thought in that moment it was ok to lie doesn't make it any less of a sin on my part.
5. Exploits of heterosexual marriage...agnostics I have no argument with you here. Many people piss on the sacred institution of marriage by just saying, "So what if I made a lifetime commitment to you without proper forethought...I want to leave and take half of the stuff...and the kids and destroy you emotionally in the process." It is disgusting to me to watch people do this.
6. We live in a republic and when the majority of people in the country vote a certain way on a law then we have to abide by it. It's interesting that you bring up laws that have no basis in secular society...we have no such laws where I live, save maybe your weak argument that homosexual unions, not marriage because marriage is between a man and woman, that are based squarely on religious principles. Now, that being said, I do know of different laws such as working on Sunday in certain parts of the country, and banning the sale of alcohol in a particular county. These two I would not hesitate to agree with you on, but consuming alcohol is not wrong even though many people will try to say it is. Getting drunk, to Christians, is wrong and if you don't want to abide by not working one day a week then that should, of course be your choice. If you are referring to those two things then you and I are in agreement.
7. "Sure...we "all" deserve to go to hell in the Christian worldview...but God is oh so merciful...to those who see things his way. That's still mega-bigotry you have to condone."
Uh...the funny thing here is that you think the Bible is kidding when it says we should ALL go to Hell. You actually think Christians just mean everyone outside the Church...but you are mistaken we are all filthy, selfish, depraved, sinful little children. My personal struggles are laziness and selfishness. I don't know how more clear to make that. If that's bigotry then at least it's equal bigotry.
8. "You are so worried about being slightly discriminated against in this life, but it doesn't seem to phase you one bit that everyone that doesn't agree with you in the next life is eternally more screwed than anyone could ever make you in this one. Am I supposed to feel sorry for you?"
I'm not worried about being discriminated against. You didn't even read what I wrote on that other comment. I said, "You can call me what you like, but what concerns me is that you, and many other atheists, think that religion is a problem that needs to be dealt with. "
I'm worried about my religious freedom being taken away...that's it. As long as you aren't wanting to take that away from me then you can call me a bigot until the cows come home.
And lastly I am concerned about everybody else going to Hell but that is the problem with xanga. There is no way to express emotion!! Concern, for the most part, is an emotion. Maybe this will help....I DON'T WANT YOU TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE I THINK YOU ARE INCREDIBLY INTELLIGENT, HAVE RESPECT FOR YOU AS A PERSON AND YOU WOULD BE AN INCREDIBLE ASSET TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD! That being said, you are allowed to make your own decision, and there is nothing I can do other than tell you the truth about Christ that will convince you. I do not pretend to have supernatural powers of persuasion.
“1. First things first...if what turns out to be true?”
I was referring to ARU’s comment; "The Biblical God is going to make everyone who disagrees with him suffer in hell for all eternity...and as a Christian you have to condone that. And that makes you a passive bigot by default."
“2. Never said I was a moral judge.”
Everyone is a moral judge; some of us are honest about it, which is why I said that.
“3. Why are you more of a moral judge? Truth is you don't want anyone telling you you are wrong about anything but you want to tell me that myself and millions of others are wrong for believing in something that you can't find evidence for. English has a word for that...hypocrisy.”
Listen to yourself here; “…myself and millions of others are wrong for believing in something that you can't find evidence for. English has a word for that...hypocrisy.” I admit I have no evidence, but where is your evidence? If you believe in things you can’t prove, how do you call me a hypocrite?
“4. What dictators are you talking about? What countries are you referring to whose whims I am a slave to?”
God.
“5. Jesus is the son of God. What fate are you referring to? His eternal fate or his earthly fate? If you are referring to his earthly fate then you are wrong he was extremely concerned about it. He sweated drops of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane when He was praying to God. If you are talking about his eternal fate then I would say, He's God and he knew he'd be resurrected.”
Well, I could go on about how you seem to know about this kind of stuff, but having been a Christian for probably longer than you’ve been alive, I don’t need the sermon. The plain fact of your metaphysics is this, you either do it God’s way, or you go to hell. Seems pretty clear to me and most other atheist, it is the Christians who don’t want to face this reality, or sugar coat it.
Mattylockharty-
You say you're not a moral judge, but I think you are wrong. Even if you abdicate your moral authority to God or the bible, you still "judged" to do that. There is no way out of moral judgments unless you die.
Mattylockharty-
Anything you believe in without evidence falls into the fairytale category. People don't go to the airport expecting to get on a rocket to mars, because there is no evidence that that is true, yet the allegory hold true for many Christians that they are en-route to the airport expecting to do that very thing. This isn’t so much about what you believe, but why you believe it.
“1. I get my morality from the Bible...a book you call a "meta-scam."”
As a rule it circumvents reality checks for arbitrary reasons and upholds credulity as a central virtue…and none of its important metaphysical propositions are necessary explanations of any of its contents…and it demands you accept it on such non-evidence at the threat of eternal retribution…what else would I call it other than a meta-scam? The natural thing to do would be to show how your belief system steps well out of the mold of a metaphysical scam by presenting relevant reality checks gratuitously…and proving that eternal damnation is all just a big misunderstanding. However 2,000 years of history speaks volumes against the likelihood of this ever happening.
“2. I am not a moral judge, but I will inform others of what THE moral judge says in His word.”
So you are saying you’ve never even attempted to evaluate the ethics of the Bible for quality? Is that wise? Do you always join a religion and swallow it whole uncritically? Such lack of discernment might even make the likes of Tom Cruise blush.
“3. How do you make moral decisions with no higher authority to point to than humans? To me, if that's all there is then there is no point to anything.”
Does your preference mean anything objective? Plenty of people are fine with the short life they get…in fact many atheists report that makes it mean more to them because that’s all they have…it could even help you out with your laziness problem given that you don’t have all eternity to waste… ;)
“4. a. I love the question you ask me over and over again..."Where's the evidence?" I'll get to the evidence in a second, but first I want to know how you can justify this statement in your logic "Got nothing but the divinely mandated prejudices of some ancient meta-scam book or two. " How can something be divinely mandated and yet be a meta-scam. I'm not sure what you meant by that statement but I thought it an interesting side note.”
You are accusing me of thinking the Bible is a literal divine mandate? Have you not read any of my posts? Can you not read “supposed” in there without help?
“b. Evidence in the world for homosexuality being wrong. First of all homosexuality is a sin like any other sin. I lie, I cheat, I steal an apple...it's all the same as homosexuality.”
I’m educated on Christian doctrine. Thank you.
“You aren't going to argue with me that lying, cheating and stealing are wrong, right?”
I can see the obvious ill consequences to them and pretty much everyone can attest to that. These things are common ground and aren’t in dispute. Even fags agree, I’m sure.
“Here is my evidence that homosexuality isn't natural or morally right...Vaginas were given to women and penises were given to men.”
See…that’s the problem, retardation isn’t natural…but that doesn’t mean there is anything immoral about being a retard. Being a hermaphrodite…also not natural…but that doesn’t mean there is anything immoral about it. Being a midget…also “not natural” but that doesn’t mean there is anything immoral about being a midget. None of these “unnatural” conditions (mere deviations from the genetic norm) hurt anyone explicitly…therefore natural ethics have nothing to say about them.
“Now, if you aren't familiar, the vagina gets wet with natural lubricants prior to the penis going into it. Which is strange that the penis fits quite nicely into the vagina and it feels quite good like it is supposed to be there or something...funny huh? Oh and on top of all that the only way to reproduce the human race, if you are into that sort of thing, is by getting a sperm(which comes from males) and an egg(which comes from females, you know the ones with the vaginas) to come together and grow into a human being. Conicidentally the baby naturally grows inside the mothers womb. Nature says that the best way to produce a kid or to have good sex is get with a woman.”
Thank you for the sex ed lesson of which I’m also familiar. However, is it immoral to get a blow job from your wife? A hand job? To bequeath the illustrious pearl necklace? How about in the butt? I pity you if you think your god is that invasive into your personal sex life…what a queer. Now you can argue that a woman provides more penetration opportunities…I’m totally with you there…but you’ll notice there’s nothing immoral about an infertile heterosexual couple. Right? Shall we stone them to death at the city gate for their lack of fertility? Simply worthless, eh? Homosexual couples are fully capable of raising adoptive kids (just like infertile heterosexual couples) who grow up to be normal heterosexuals and this is well attested in other countries.
“ That being said...I don't single out homosexuals from other sinners.”
Sure you do. Homosexual relationships are not just about sex. They are also about love. Many homosexuals simply are not emotionally satisfied by the love of a member of the opposite sex. Is lying about love? Is cheating about love? Is stealing about love? What if by the shear freak of nature heterosexuality was the deviation from the norm of asexual reproduction? What if you were told that you were not allowed to be in love with a member of the opposite sex simply because the Prokaryotic God of the mainstream asexual population said it was a “sin”…even though it was entirely emotionally edifying to you through no fault of your own and hurts no one? How would you feel? You think a godless world is a deal-breaker…I guarantee not being able to have heterosexual sex is at least as great a deal breaker with meaning in life for most people. Now, obviously homosexual love isn’t about loving God’s homophobic laws…but that’s what’s in question, now isn’t it?
So I have to ask again…where’s the proof? Now as a side note we can talk about the stereotypical promiscuous gays…but when you deny them marriage…how hypocritical is that? Wouldn’t that be encouragement to lead a monogamous lifestyle you may wish to criticize them for? Are ALL gays promiscuous? If not…then there’s no reason to cock block gay marriage any more than there is to do away with straight marriage.
“7. "Sure...we "all" deserve to go to hell in the Christian worldview...but God is oh so merciful...to those who see things his way. That's still mega-bigotry you have to condone."”
“Uh...the funny thing here is that you think the Bible is kidding when it says we should ALL go to Hell.”
Um…I don’t think its kidding…in fact, normally I’m the one preaching this interpretation against Christians who think the Bible is “kidding”…I just think its wrong. Do nine out of ten people you know deserve eternal torment for their short comings? Do you know ANYONE that deserves eternal torment for ANYTHING? Give Hitler a few millennia…but sheesh…forever? Must we become Hitler to punish Hitler?
“You actually think Christians just mean everyone outside the Church...but you are mistaken we are all filthy, selfish, depraved, sinful little children.”
I’m entirely familiar with the concept of the “visible and invisible church”.
“My personal struggles are laziness and selfishness. I don't know how more clear to make that. If that's bigotry then at least it's equal bigotry.”
Well it’s entirely possible you don’t feel or engage in any actual bigotry…it’s just that bigotry is inherent in your adopted philosophy…whether it’s active or not…that’s up for grabs. Normally the literal active emotional bigotry in Christianity is in terms of “spiritual discernment.” Non-Christians are thus seen as vice-ridden bottom feeders that know nothing of higher spiritual truths (and they quote the Bible to demonstrate this “fact”)…that’s bigotry. If a Christian pretends like I don’t understand one of their arguments as a Christian (oh and they have) and I know for a fact I do and am actually running circles around them like there’s no tomorrow looking WAY down on them from my own vantage point…that’s not only a pathetic copout instead of a better argument…but its pretty bigoted as well. And this is the most common.
At least the ascetics of Eastern Orthodox Christianity seem humble and honest enough to recognize the spiritual accomplishments of their Catholic and Eastern Mystic peers…though they still try to shanghai that into their own belief system (aka "Christ the Eternal Tao"). Its one thing to recognize that someone outranks you in some way or another...or to recognize you out rank someone else (such is unavoidable)…but disrespecting them for what they could not help all the while not doing anything about it or not doing anything to prevent it as God is guilty of…and on top of that exploiting it for your own personal gain…that’s just wrong in so many ways. And condoning it as a Christian must is even worse.
On the technical side…which is the nature of my original observation...if it is true that only Jesus affirmers get into heaven no matter how good they are (or just the fact that God's standards are so high and the deck is so stacked against everyone)…and by golly few are going to be saved so we have to get the number of the damned from somewhere…that is bigotry on God’s part. That’s complete disrespect for humanity in general…like we are born sinners merely to be poorly shepherded hell fodder for all eternity like a showcase of God’s own depraved sense of justice. If you condone your god…you have to condone this judgment of humanity…
Saying you discriminate against yourself as well…that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. There are Nazi Jews who are quite self-loathing…bigots towards others (perhaps even in denial)…and towards parts of themselves. That just makes it complicated. So…please...next time you have a fit of Christian self-deprecation (if in fact that is part of your emotional cycle…I wouldn’t know…but I know lots of Christians who are like that…you probably do as well)…remember…is it the right thing to do to hate yourself? Do you have a good reason? If God’s “wisdom” weren’t involved…would you still find adequate grounds for hating yourself on a regular basis? Is this in fact a symptom of God’s bigotry towards a race of sinners he let loose on the world?
Tough questions and I leave that for you to ponder. But at least consider…if you are cool with whatever possible dysfunctional relationship you may or may not have with your god…if the gays are going to burn in hell for all eternity…why not be merciful and let them have the full life they think they want right now? Who does this hurt in this life? It’s a tiny percentage of the population as it is. Cuz in my mind the only thing hurting in this gay marriage scenario…is the intolerant Christian ego. We got PLENTY of evidence of that.
“ I'm not worried about being discriminated against. You didn't even read what I wrote on that other comment. I said, "You can call me what you like, but what concerns me is that you, and many other atheists, think that religion is a problem that needs to be dealt with. "”
So you weren’t the one who said, “It is dangerous when people start talking like this and as a Christian it frightens me a little that I am hearing more and more people starting to talk like this. Maybe you think I'm being paranoid but it sounds like that if you had it your way there would be no religion allowed in this country.”?
“I'm worried about my religious freedom being taken away...that's it. As long as you aren't wanting to take that away from me then you can call me a bigot until the cows come home.”
Notice I said, “passive bigot” meaning your position makes you one technically even if you don’t emotionally ever realize it. And arguably most Christians don’t. However condoning the condemnation of your fellow man to eternal destruction is the worst possible insult available…one not earned…and thus entirely disloyal to your species. Including yourself just makes things complicated…not right. Think about it…you are calling people the worst possible piece of shit possible…for what crime? Being born? If I called a black person an intolerable piece of shit for being black…that would make me a bigot, right? Did he choose to be black? So calling people eternal hell fodder for the crime of being born is not better. Did anyone choose to be born a sinner? It’s worse…it’s arguably the worst form of bigotry possible. I would commend you if you could come up with a more insidious example.
“And lastly I am concerned about everybody else going to Hell but that is the problem with xanga. There is no way to express emotion!! Concern, for the most part, is an emotion. Maybe this will help....I DON'T WANT YOU TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE I THINK YOU ARE INCREDIBLY INTELLIGENT, HAVE RESPECT FOR YOU AS A PERSON AND YOU WOULD BE AN INCREDIBLE ASSET TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD!”
It’s too bad God doesn’t think so. Thanks for the heretical compliment, though.
“That being said, you are allowed to make your own decision, and there is nothing I can do other than tell you the truth about Christ that will convince you. I do not pretend to have supernatural powers of persuasion.”
Not to be a dick, but you do basically pretend that your God via the Holy Spirit does have supernatural powers of persuasion…a la grace that he chooses to apply at his leisure for whatever amoral reasons. Unfortunately God apparently isn’t willing to meet my evidential “doubting Thomas” price…aka a personal one on one conversation to clear all this nonsense up and start an actual PERSONAL relationship…meaning I must be collateral damage for the greater good…and by greater good of course I mean the lesser good since few will be saved (it must have been opposite “yom” in heaven for the last 6,000 years, eh?). Ah well…god’s loss.
ARU
ARU,
It's obvious you were deeply offended by the Christian faith at one point and I suppose we could continue this merry go round but it doesn't seem to be productive. I will no longer comment on your site.
Hate to break it to you, but living in a christian society and not being one and often having these arguments and using that exact same starting point before, none of the above would ever be followed by a smart christian.
you need to go with the more stereotypical responses. These are too...narrow and either dumbed down or smart then going stupid.
I wish it were that easy.
Woops.
There goes that argument.
Of course, this requires bone marrow, and of course, women can only make girls.
But hey, if all men disappeared one day, the world would now continue.
Hooray
ARU
"Theist 3: God is not the author of confusion. Man is."
Not so, silly theist. Gen11:9 declares that God did indeed author a whole shitload of confusion.
Otherwise, well done once again, ARU. Several moments of sheer brilliance. I particularly liked this point: "Think about it…you are calling people the worst possible piece of shit possible…for what crime? Being born? If I called a black person an intolerable piece of shit for being black…that would make me a bigot, right? Did he choose to be black? So calling people eternal hell fodder for the crime of being born is not better. Did anyone choose to be born a sinner? It’s worse…it’s arguably the worst form of bigotry possible."
In addition to my God-as-author-of-confusion retort, I can't wait to trot this bigot piece out, next time I'm discussing things with a fundamentalist.
Oh, and if I can remember the proper delivery, I also want to use something along this line: "So you are saying you’ve never even attempted to evaluate the ethics of the Bible for quality? Is that wise? Do you always join a religion and swallow it whole uncritically? Such lack of discernment might even make the likes of Tom Cruise blush."
ARU
ARU: "...though at one level it is confusion...at another level it is organization...because apparent confusion translated into strategic organization..."
But the verse in question doesn't say "God made it look like their languages were confused." It says "God confused the language of all the earth."
God is said to have taken an active and direct hand in personally causing the confusion of all language on the planet. That makes him, quite literally, the author of confusion.
Plus, what about a person who is delusional? Could we not accurately describe a person who is suffering from delusion as being extremely confused?