Saturday, 14 April 2007
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Opinion Poll, "Eternal Nightmare vs Nonexistence"
Voluntary Assignment
Very Simple Research!
[in a misguided attempt to prove God wrong]
Here’s what you got to do if you choose to participate. Ask as many people as you like this question:
Hypothetically, if you had the choice between these two options starting tomorrow and only these two options:
- Experiencing the worst possible state of being forever…for all eternity. Like the worst nightmare you’ve ever had with the exception it never stops. You may or may not know this if you make the decision for tomorrow’s sake, but right now you happen to magically know for a fact with more certainty than anything else you can be sure of that there is no hope whatsoever and that you can never escape this torment (i.e. you are immortal and never die). The top ten things you like or love about life are not there or are somehow against you in the worst ironic way possible and the top ten things you most hate about life are there in the most psychologically abusive sadistic way possible.
-Further elaboration if they “don’t get it.” (most people will) If you think you are so immune to torment, remember, even soldiers trained not to crack under torture eventually do. Everyone has nightmares where they are completely subject to their worst fears and aren’t in touch with hope or anything else. There is no valid objection. You are meant to have an unending experience that makes you as miserable as possible in the very specific way catered to you personally…and if you like being miserable even, your desire for misery will be suspended and you will not like being miserable…not to mention there probably isn’t anyone that actually likes being as miserable as possible…just tolerably miserable. NO LOOPHOLES! The evil gnome moderating your torment is cleverer than you are.
- Non-existence…exactly how it was long before you were born. Remember that? That’s the second option. This doesn’t mean you have to kill yourself…the magic fairy will waive her wand and pleasantly zap you out of existence. There is no “I cannot self terminate,” here. The root question is, is mere existence ALWAYS better than non-existence?
A few parameters:
-Don’t mention heaven or hell or God or Jesus. Make it a generic hypothetical question. We don’t want people disagreeing with religion because they don’t like religion and we don’t want people agreeing with Christian doctrine, just because it’s Christian doctrine. We just want honest opinions.
-Make sure they know this is only hypothetical. Obviously, in theory, Jesus would never stop loving them…but hypothetically, part of this situation as defined is that all the perks of existence including God’s unfailing love are removed or inverted. There’s no comfort zone by definition.
-If they don’t want to answer the question as stated and try relentlessly to change the parameters, point that out to them and say their vote will be not be tallied because they are not answering the question asked. That is their choice of course…but those are the rules for inclusion. They can answer all the other hypothetical questions they want, but they are disqualified if they don’t answer this one.
-As long as you think they understand the parameters and givens of the question, and they still choose existence no matter what…let that be. Only press them if you think they are changing something or if you think they don’t understand. Warning: I’ve already started doing this and there are people that simply will not answer the question asked. Be prepared. Make sure you understand all the parameters of the question yourself so you can relate it to them.
-If they ask why you are asking this question…some people will think you are weird for challenging them with the very notion of non-existence like its just too impossible to fathom such a thing as not going to heaven to be with Jesus (even if you mention no such thing)…some people will be perplexed for asking such an obvious question like you are saying, “Does 1+1=2?” “Of course I don’t want to be ass raped for all eternity.” I told people that religious fanatics online think God is evil and requires you to believe that it is immoral to make people not exist therefore justifying eternal damnation and that I’m just doing a spot check on my own sanity. I don’t press the issue that this is actually mainstream Christian apologetics because I think it is wrong to tell people that aren’t asking for it (since we aren’t on xanga and we are soliciting them) that Christianity teaches God is actually a dick and is really going to send most people to hell for all eternity. People don’t need that reinforced because fear of the unknown is a powerful thing and people don't need their bubble burst with the details of scripture that aren't as kind as their assumptions of what a good god would do. And since we aren’t Christians here (though you can participate as well if you are that daring), we are free to do what is ethical with no fear of retribution from a glory-mongering deity.
Outro:
So far my numbers are 10 for non-existence to 3 for eternal ass rape, with 3 disqualifieds who couldn't figure out that they weren't allowed to change the parameters (aka, they thought they could still be in love with Jesus no matter what or that they could pray to god and he would rescue them or that no matter what there is hope). BTW, the 2 of the three who would rather be eternally ass-raped are unconfirmed on if they exactly understand the deal. So we only have one definite who appears to understand the terms exactly and chooses existence no matter what.
Give me back the results. Tell me what country/state you are in and what the totals are and list even the excluded….please share any funny stories about anyone squirming out of the hypothetical question. May this popularity vote triumph over absolute truth! Or if you aren’t wearing the Christian glasses, “May common sense triumph over unethical dogma!”
Ben
- Experiencing the worst possible state of being forever…for all eternity. Like the worst nightmare you’ve ever had with the exception it never stops. You may or may not know this if you make the decision for tomorrow’s sake, but right now you happen to magically know for a fact with more certainty than anything else you can be sure of that there is no hope whatsoever and that you can never escape this torment (i.e. you are immortal and never die). The top ten things you like or love about life are not there or are somehow against you in the worst ironic way possible and the top ten things you most hate about life are there in the most psychologically abusive sadistic way possible.
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Comments (20)
My buddy says that he would rather be tortured for eternity. At least you got to live that way.
Non existence would be a more favorable choice for most people. But so what?
Actions have consequences. Choices have consequences. I'm glad that after Adolph Hitler got through with killing his millions of Jews/Christians/homosexuals and others and that when he took his own life he couldn't just escape the consequences and disappear into non-existence. For him and all others it is a matter of justice.
Your poll will likely show that people prefer not to be judged for their actions, but that doesn't make the possibility of judgment less likely. You say that God is being a dick, but I say that God is being just.
So this comment is a pre-emptive "so what?" to the likely results of your poll.
Your characterization of God as a glory-profiteering deity is an interesting one. God gave us life, liberty, and even died for us and he simply wants us to recognize him for who he is. How dare he. He wants us to see the truth and see him for who he is--our Creator, the one we owe our existence too. Oh well, different worldviews necessarily lead to different conclusions about such things.
You know, I argued this idea back-n-forth for multiple comments on a post on my other blog. The idea of non-existence being better than eternal torture, I mean.
Do you just want tallies for answers we get from others? Or can I put my answer and my wife's in too?
Oh, and if you find yourself arguing the point again with people who want to constantly change the paramaters, especially by appeal to their Christian apologetics, you might remind them of Matthew 26:24 and Mark 14:21. It becomes absurdly difficult for a Christian to argue that it is better for God to grant existence by way of eternal punishment, as opposed to simple non-existence, when The Book He Wrote says otherwise. Heh.
I think that cuts both ways. I'm sure there are plenty of unnecessary suicides as well as people that probably ought to call it quits.
ARU
“My buddy says that he would rather be tortured for eternity. At least you got to live that way.”
What’s your vote?
I understand it’s an emotionalism for some people that need to think that existence is always better, because to admit otherwise is to embrace that their life may not be worth anything. It’s like the folks that believe we have to have hardship to be happy and that if we lived in a perfect world we’d be upset. They have to believe this not because it is probably true, but because otherwise they wouldn’t be able to deal with the current hardship they have no escape from.
“Non existence would be a more favorable choice for most people. But so what?”
The point is that it is a “refutation” that existence is inherently sacred…that it would be somehow immoral if God made anyone cease to exist. All I’m showing is that this doctrine goes against the grain of common sense…not just *my* common sense.
“Actions have consequences. Choices have consequences. I'm glad that after Adolph Hitler got through with killing his millions of Jews/Christians/homosexuals and others and that when he took his own life he couldn't just escape the consequences and disappear into non-existence. For him and all others it is a matter of justice.”
Yes, but we don’t need to become Adolf Hitler to punish Adolf Hitler. If God exists, give the guy a few thousand years of torture, but any more than that is purely sadistic…not justice. Life doesn’t start off fair and it doesn’t end fair in the atheist world. Adolf might get off (arguably he was brain-fucked in his life) easy, but on the flip side of that 9 out of 10 loved ones aren’t going to be burning in hell with him. So tell me, how much is justice across the board worth to you?
“Your poll will likely show that people prefer not to be judged for their actions, but that doesn't make the possibility of judgment less likely.”
This isn’t the sinful nature talking…its dignity. Are the Christians who have enough self respect to know when to say when…are they trying to not be judged by their actions as well in my hypothetical scenario? The context presented has nothing to do with sin or judgment or heaven or hell inherently. It’s about the inherent worth of existence. And this piece of the puzzle transfers into how a particular proposition that props up the doctrine of hell is completely ridiculous and everyone (even you apparently) knows it.
“You say that God is being a dick, but I say that God is being just.”
Justice would be the punishment fitting the crime. Being a dick means doing whatever the hell you want at *any* expense just because you can get away with it.
“So this comment is a pre-emptive "so what?" to the likely results of your poll.”
It encourages theists that argue otherwise to empathize with what a wide variety of people think…and/or it forces them to retreat further and further into standing *solely* on their presuppositions that can’t dock intelligibly with the real world even though they claim their axioms are the best explanation of it.
“Your characterization of God as a glory-profiteering deity is an interesting one. God gave us life, liberty, and even died for us and he simply wants us to recognize him for who he is. How dare he. He wants us to see the truth and see him for who he is--our Creator, the one we owe our existence too. Oh well, different worldviews necessarily lead to different conclusions about such things.”
Right, there’s no problem necessarily with the acquisition of glory any more than there is in the acquisition of money. However when you burn through the entire population of humanity like this to get it:
-Why is there any evil in the world if god is loving and capable?
-Why weren't we created to only be able to select from all good options?
-Why did God let billions of autonomous individuals inherit non-paradise and sinful natures? Aka, why can sinners have children?
-Why would God create an angel that could be so vain as to be able to ignore that he's up against an omnipotent opponent?
-Why would he let the fallen angels mess up the entire population of the world (Genesis 6)so that it would require a global flood to mop up the mistake?
-Why were their only 8 people worth saving if God is such a good shepherd?
-Why did God leave the Hebrews in slavery for 400 years so that they would be exposed to abuse and the evil culture of the Egyptians that would influence them for hundreds of years?
-Why did God's shepherding of the original Hebrews in the desert result in only 2 individuals out of 3 million making it to the Promised Land?
-Why did God give Joshua a permit for ethnic cleansing and genocide when he could have supernaturally made Saudi Arabia a “land flowing with milk and honey” instead of giving every theistically inclined tyrant later a license to do as much evil with God's supposed seal of approval? Why hasn’t god provided an objective way for everyone to know which holy wars are approved and which ones aren’t? Why doesn’t God at least settle religious differences so that people can only wage war about their own earthly grievances with one another?
-If all of this were preparation for a few hundred years of a hay day for Israel...David and Solomon,etc., why were all of these figures up to their eyeballs in warfare? On David's deathbed he's dishing out orders to have his enemies assassinated, for crying out loud. Surely there are other peaceful eras of other cultures who didn't have to build it on unnecessary bloodshed that probably even lasted longer.
-Why are only a few people going to make it heaven? Isn't this the relative percentage we would expect if God is doing nothing?
-Why does anyone have to suffer in hell for all eternity for their finite sins on earth?
-Why do the trials in life ever exceed that which is possible to build character? Why is there excessive evil?
-Why doesn’t Jesus come to each person and explain exactly what the situation is so that everyone knows what is up and what they can do about it? Why in the world are there atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, people being innocently deceived in other theistic religions, and tormented Christians that could all obviously benefit from such trivial base knowledge? Why is it part of the spectrum of free will to even be able to disbelieve in the basic deal? Why is the situation not completely only about what you want to do with the relationship…across the board?
-Why are there so many unclarified hyperbolic moral statements by Jesus in the gospels when he knows billions of people with all sorts of backgrounds will be reading it? (ex: cutting off hands, hating your family, thought crimes, etc.) Isn’t that a recipe for disaster for many people that need things to be plain and evident so that they don’t take things wrong? We could through in all the other moral extremes peppered throughout scripture that most pastors and theologians…people that intelligibly try to make it work “explain out of the belief system?”
-Why instead of an obviously lovingly shepherded world do we find a big evil world full of whatever?
-How can ALL of this just be a big misunderstanding? And even the whole “big misunderstanding” argument is also a powerful argument from evil, since that in and of itself is a mark against God’s wisdom in terms of communication skills.
…it becomes in the most derogatory sense, mere glory-profiteering. People should be just as opposed to “sin-sploitation for glory” (like Romans 11:32) as they are to “blood for oil.” For all you know, Jesus shut his pain centers off that one Good Friday. No one but a god…that isn’t concerned about the extreme collateral damage of the needless suffering on earth of billions of people who inevitably are only going to serve as eternal hell fodder…knows whether or not he used his command of the wind and the waves to make his “sacrifice” easy. I’m not saying he did or didn’t flip that mental switch. He may not even have existed. But the point is, all things considered…on what *firm* basis should you or I presume something virtuous when it isn't required? Why be virtuous if he doesn’t have to? Who is he accountable to? Who would even know? How would it ever matter? Isn’t that how theistic ethics work when no greater being is watching your every move? A couple hours of suffering one weekend two thousand years ago no matter how humiliating for a god, really doesn’t cut the mustard in light of the big picture. It's trivial and God doesn't deserve the glory he's soliciting.
ARU
Go ahead and put everyone in.
I can't find the article, but Christian apologists like J.P.Holding at tectonics.org claim that Jesus is exaggerating when he talks about Judas. Of course the Bible is always exaggerating when it contradicts itself...but that's another story. I'm sure Judas is counting his blessing(s?) in hell right now reminiscing on Jesus's gratuitous use of ancient near eastern hyperbole, "I am SO glad I was born..." lmao
ARU
"I think that cuts both ways. I'm sure there are plenty of unnecessary suicides as well as people that probably ought to call it quits."
It does cut both ways. There are a lot of people who commit suicide that probably shouldn't. But I think there are a lot more whose lives should really be ended to end their suffering, but they simply don't see it as an option. They live though neverending hell and which continues until their death.
Then we are in total agreement.
ARU
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Thanks, JimStaple
First of all, God didn't die for us. He simply got nailed to the cross (which is bad, but it could have been worse), went to hell for 3 days (more like one and a half, and I don't know if he was even bothered by it) and now he's alive and well. Secondly, we will probably despise God even more for him causing our existence once we're in hell, as this survey is supposed to prove.
Tony
ARU
"...but Christian apologists like J.P.Holding at tectonics.org claim..."
Robert Turkel is a complete moron.
ARU
As long as we’re putting value on Adolf’s murder’s, let’s also keep going and ask the question; is it really a sin to kill someone who is going to hell anyway? Seeing that Christians are the first to make the heaven/hell distinction about others, (judgmental) perhaps Adolf only killed a couple thousand heavenly bound folks. Does that make the consequences any better? One of the things that pisses me off about Christians is that they seem to think (in stark contrast to what their bible says) that sin has some scale of badness, where lying is not quite as bad as stealing, which is not as bad as murder. The bible clearly states that sin is sin, so Adolf might be notorious, but he’s no worse than the rest of us, that is until some Christian needs to support fallacious thinking. “Your characterization of God as a glory-profiteering deity is an interesting one. God gave us life, liberty, and even died for us and he simply wants us to recognize him for who he is. How dare he. He wants us to see the truth and see him for who he is--our Creator, the one we owe our existence too. Oh well, different worldviews necessarily lead to different conclusions about such things.” If God is so bent on us recognizing him, where is he??? I typically recognize things and people I have seen or have some contact with. How do –you- know what God wants anyway? Some of those different conclusions you speak of are simply the difference between honest observation and wishful thinking. Worldviews are made through critical thinking and observations, not old books and magic.
OMG, I laughed so hard. I added a word, because that's what I happened to think I read.
ARU
Da Vinci,
You are right the Bible does not differentiate sin, but different sins have different earthly consequences. Christians are imperfect despite what they would have you believe and, to me, it is difficult to not differentiate sin because of the influence of the world around me. You are right, in God's eyes, we are no better than Hitler we are all sinners, but on Earth he would have been executed for his crime, whereas had I stolen a TV from a store I would get a couple of years in Prison. I guess it depends on what is the biggest threat to do a person harm. Taking someone's life is going to do more harm and affect more people than if some guy stole my TV.
ARU
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